More hate decrease for hox?

[Shax84]

I think the threadmakers point is abit upside down to begin with, a hox doing good damage should take aggro from a "bad" tank, whatever reason bad is. A good hox rarely take aggro from a good tank. And I think we can all agree on, that even tho sins have more minus hate, its more often sins that die from aggro than hoxes.

Exactly! /10

[Greyloins]

I think the threadmakers point is abit upside down to begin with, a hox doing good damage should take aggro from a "bad" tank, whatever reason bad is. A good hox rarely take aggro from a good tank. And I think we can all agree on, that even tho sins have more minus hate, its more often sins that die from aggro than hoxes.

If a sin is in a fight where aggro is a big problem/tank situation isn't ideal, he can go for a tribuild with general hate decrease feats, and still do pretty decent if not reach his true potential...

If a hox does the same, he reduces his dps to a far, far greater extent, to the point that he might as well just stay in his usual spec and twiddle his thumbs for 10 seconds (or intentionally die, which amounts to the same thing pretty much), as the end result will be the same.

Like it or not it's a big problem that with T5 and T6, soldiers didn't get all that much better hate generation relative to the huge DPS increases certain DPS classes got.

[Fass]

Poms frequently grab aggro during some trials as well, but they can usually handle it with a quick bubble and, eventually soul.

That's not what I meant. In our time trials the poms are the tanks. It doesnt matter how much a hox does, it will never take aggro from crazy poms. That is what I was trying to say, that in a time trial group where you need to burn things fast, especially in t1 then you get poms tanking.

[Greyloins]

That's not what I meant. In our time trials the poms are the tanks. It doesnt matter how much a hox does, it will never take aggro from crazy poms. That is what I was trying to say, that in a time trial group where you need to burn things fast, especially in t1 then you get poms tanking.

That's not the case for us, but then every guild has a different situation. Perhaps your poms blow Cleansing early, while we don't always even have more than 1 pom and 1 necro.

[Shax84]

If a sin is in a fight where aggro is a big problem/tank situation isn't ideal, he can go for a tribuild with general hate decrease feats, and still do pretty decent if not reach his true potential... If a hox does the same, he reduces his dps to a far, far greater extent, to the point that he might as well just stay in his usual spec and twiddle his thumbs for 10 seconds (or intentionally die, which amounts to the same thing pretty much), as the end result will be the same.

How much do you expect a HoX will drop on a straw man parse with this; http://goo.gl/e1OFks rather than this; http://goo.gl/gJztuZ ? I now need to wash my hands and meditate (read: drink whisky) to forget about making a tribuild...

If a tank is bad there is nothing a damage dealer can do about it except white hits.

[Texan615]

If a tank is bad there is nothing a damage dealer can do about it except white hits.

No, actually a damage dealer should die and tell the tanks they suck

[Greyloins]

How much do you expect a HoX will drop on a straw man parse with this; http://goo.gl/e1OFks rather than this; http://goo.gl/gJztuZ ? I now need to wash my hands and meditate (read: drink whisky) to forget about making a tribuild...

If a tank is bad there is nothing a damage dealer can do about it except white hits.

I'm not talking about bad tanks, I'm talking about dps in the best possible gear, max potions, and a bit of luck with shields and crits, doing enough dps to yank a boss off any tank short of a guard blowing all his cooldowns (which don't last that long), or a DT with similar gear/potions/luck (or at least not bad luck).

As for that build, I'm not gonna guess because your DPS on a strawman can easily swing 300 plus or minus based on how lucky you are with crits and finesse hits (sometimes nearly all my HS proc finesse, other times none over 3 min for example). I will say that you lose Searing Hatred which can be a pretty considerable source of damage if you maintain it by not using your Pillars one after the other, especially in a situation with more than 1 target, and Improved Burning Skull is also pretty decent. Butcher is ofc very good, as is points in Damning Eloquence. That said, I honestly had not considered going for a hox tribuild without Misdirection, perhaps something to consider.

[Shax84]

I will say that you lose Searing Hatred which can be a pretty considerable source of damage if you maintain it by not using your Pillars one after the other, especially in a situation with more than 1 target, and Improved Burning Skull is also pretty decent. Butcher is ofc very good, as is points in Damning Eloquence. That said, I honestly had not considered going for a hox tribuild without Misdirection, perhaps something to consider.

Well for points spent we're talking a complete waste of 3 points with Inferno Curse if you got a Demo/ToS in raid/group that debuff your target, we're talking max 5% of total damage done from Searing Hatred and Improved Burning Skull. How much difference does Butcher do? For 5 points, you increase weapon dps by 30 if you have a 150 dps weapon. This is less than unfeated Exultation of Xotli. It will give maybe 2% more dmg from the Burn to Death dot wich in most cases account for a 0,5% total dps increase. Saying Butcher is "ofc very good" is the exaggeration of the year. It's a decent place to spend points but debatable which is better from Flame Tongue and Butcher, because you can get 4 points in Knowledge of the Underworld if you strip some points from Avatar. (Numbers pulled from Hoxymanias T6 run last week).

If you have problems with taking agro, that will ultimately help you by losing like 6-7% damage of the total damage done and additionally grant -5% hate. As you wished for. Without rendering HoX useless. :-)

[Greyloins]

Well for points spent we're talking a complete waste of 3 points with Inferno Curse if you got a Demo/ToS in raid/group that debuff your target, we're talking max 5% of total damage done from Searing Hatred and Improved Burning Skull. How much difference does Butcher do? For 5 points, you increase weapon dps by 30 if you have a 150 dps weapon. This is less than unfeated Exultation of Xotli. It will give maybe 2% more dmg from the Burn to Death dot wich in most cases account for a 0,5% total dps increase. Saying Butcher is "ofc very good" is the exaggeration of the year. It's a decent place to spend points but debatable which is better from Flame Tongue and Butcher, because you can get 4 points in Knowledge of the Underworld if you strip some points from Avatar. (Numbers pulled from Hoxymanias T6 run last week).

If you have problems with taking agro, that will ultimately help you by losing like 6-7% damage of the total damage done and additionally grant -5% hate. As you wished for. Without rendering HoX useless. :-)

Unfortunately, barely any demos bother applying ruin (just like most hoxes don't), and toses don't have it as their priority, meaning it takes them quite a few seconds to actually put it on the boss. I love having instant or near instant Inferno Curse on my hox because I can put it on the boss at pull, which I think makes a difference especially in a trial.

Also, I consider Butcher one of our best feats - you can get some insane physical damage off in burst windows when you have t6 weapon, prelate, bs/guard/conq/demo/zerker barb in group and blessing of mitra going, and yes I think Butcher constitutes quite a lot of dps in such a situation (which is one example of somewhere you might get aggro). It was debatable if Knowledge was better than Butcher back when our best gear was T4, before Fire Lance got buffed, before we were using max rank Hell strikes, and now I think Butcher is the clear winner, especially assuming you have the best gear in the game.

That said the build is good and less a sacrifice than a build with Misdirection. I'd probably switch to it if I didn't use a Misdirection build when I'm playing with pug tanks, but to be honest I would probably not be using it anyhow. Better to grab aggro once in a while in a trial, than to do consistently worse dps when every second counts.

[Maly]

I think it's very hard to use ruin on classes that can't do it.