GUARD, DT or CONQ?

[SHAKALL]

Hi fellow adventurers,

I am an old player who will never be a good player whatever the class he plays.
I have a 80 BS and hesitate between a 80 GUARD and, thanks to free levels, a 80 CONQ and a 50 DT as new toon.

Of what i understood:
- GUARD relies on hate and could be the most trikky tanking toon to play,
- DT is DPS orientated to generate aggro and heavily relies on stuff to be efficient,
- CONQ is also DPS orientated and a really "human cutting machine".

When reading the class description i thought that the GARD was the best and dedicated to tank in every situation. But in reality DT and CONQ can really do the same in most situations.

I like the DT magical orientation and the CONQ seems to be the simplest of the 3 tanks (no insult inside), but as GUARD seems to be the most difficult of the 3 toons, i am thinking of playing this one.

Could you give me any objective clue about that plz?
My game experience of the game is obviously not good enough to have a real opinion of what each of them can do.

Thx all.

[Greyloins]

Hi fellow adventurers,

I am an old player who will never be a good player whatever the class he plays.
I have a 80 BS and hesitate between a 80 GUARD and, thanks to free levels, a 80 CONQ and a 50 DT as new toon.

Of what i understood:
- GUARD relies on hate and could be the most trikky tanking toon to play,
- DT is DPS orientated to generate aggro and heavily relies on stuff to be efficient,
- CONQ is also DPS orientated and a really "human cutting machine".

When reading the class description i thought that the GARD was the best and dedicated to tank in every situation. But in reality DT and CONQ can really do the same in most situations.

I like the DT magical orientation and the CONQ seems to be the simplest of the 3 tanks (no insult inside), but as GUARD seems to be the most difficult of the 3 toons, i am thinking of playing this one.

Could you give me any objective clue about that plz?
My game experience of the game is obviously not good enough to have a real opinion of what each of them can do.

Thx all.

Conq is really the most complex in terms of how many skills they have to use in an ideal rotation, and the fact that they're the only tank class that needs to weapon-swap in their ordinary rotation (I guess S&B guards might switch for Stagger, a knockback using polearm, but that's about it). IMO the difference between a skilled conq and a bad one is greater than the difference between a skilled and bad DT or guard. The "conqs are simple and dumb" idea that people throw about applies more to carnage (mostly a dps spec for conqs), which has a very simple rotation of three combos that provide great dps, although the dps rotations for DTs (tho DTs can rarely dps because they deal obscene damage when geared and unlike carnage conqs don't have an in-built -aggro feat) and guards (tho guards almost never dps because their sustained dps is horrible sadly) are even more simple.

Guards also have a lot of skills they can use, but really some of them are pretty useless, so they end up with a less complex rotation than conqs. DTs use the least of all the soldiers IMO, but they have some complexity in that they have more viable tank specs than conqs and DTs, and a lot of different item choices that let them choose their aggro/dps/life leech vs. their mitigation and utility. For instance, many geared DTs use some wisdom (magic dmg) items in some encounters.

The "DTs are magic-dmg specialists" concept from early in the game's development doesn't really apply any more. Guards are just as good for prot fights really, and many of the prot fights in the game have bosses who require lots of tank swapping (so DTs can make use of their full dps, or they will die), such as Thoth-Amon, Lu-zhi, Yah-Chieng. Conqs have maybe a small disadvantage in magic fights since they have slightly less protection than the other soldiers, and one of their defensive cooldowns doesn't work vs. magic dmg.

I'm sure someone will disagree, but I'd say a guard is the easiest tank to get started with if all you're interested in is tanking. They are the least popular soldier because they lack a decent dps spec, but they have the highest mitigation and can tank HMs in tier 1-2 gear unlike DTs and Conqs, who need crit to get and hold aggro. It's hard to get raid spots in guilds when maining a soldier class, but at least guards slots are sometimes not taken, while everyone and their mother has a DT. It's usually easy to get a tank spot in pugs, but it's the hardest role to get started with when you don't know encounters, and people who start groups for the hardest dungeons often play a soldier themselves as they don't trust a random to do the role well.

[Dodgeball]

Hi fellow adventurers,

I am an old player who will never be a good player whatever the class he plays.
I have a 80 BS and hesitate between a 80 GUARD and, thanks to free levels, a 80 CONQ and a 50 DT as new toon.

Of what i understood:
- GUARD relies on hate and could be the most trikky tanking toon to play,
- DT is DPS orientated to generate aggro and heavily relies on stuff to be efficient,
- CONQ is also DPS orientated and a really "human cutting machine".

When reading the class description i thought that the GARD was the best and dedicated to tank in every situation. But in reality DT and CONQ can really do the same in most situations.

I like the DT magical orientation and the CONQ seems to be the simplest of the 3 tanks (no insult inside), but as GUARD seems to be the most difficult of the 3 toons, i am thinking of playing this one.

Could you give me any objective clue about that plz?
My game experience of the game is obviously not good enough to have a real opinion of what each of them can do.

Thx all.

Just a little more insight into what each class can offer...

The following is in regards to tanking, not dpsing.

Group situations: Guard and Conq offer the most in terms of group buffs and weapon damage buffs. Whereas the DT doesn't provide much in the way of group buffs, they contribute much more dps when they are dedicated tanks compared to the other 2 tanks. Its a pretty fair trade off overall, just depends on if you rather be team support(conq or guard) or carry the team(DT).

Solo play/feats: Conq offers the funnest experience with a variety of good AAs and multiple feat builds that can work very well, moderate dps between guard and DT and far as tanking goes. Guard is limited to only 2 specs really and only have a couple AA's that are worth using and offers limited, dare i say "low" dps. DT can have multiple specs that work well, but is heavily dependent on 1 AA (Void of madness), of course other AAs can be used but Void of madness makes all other AAs like like crap. DT offers best DPS as a tank.

Overall DT requires the least amount of effort to play well once you have some decent gear and the right AA. Guard and conq have a steeper learning curve, but not as steep as you might think. I cant really say one is better than another, just a preference of play style.

[SHAKALL]

Thx to both of you for those advices and keeping the conversation "nice".
As you understood it, my intention was not to get into an argue about: "my class is the best one" but I was trying to get a good idea of what I could expect from the tank's archetypes.

Even if i like the idea of the magic warrior carried by DT, there are too many of them to be fun.
I was also looking for a class offering a curve of learning not too steep but interesting and rewarding.

I really enjoyed levelling my CONQ with his many KB and the weapon swapping (read that in another post, but it seemed to concern only one 2 weapons you had to use between your 2HCW attacks) but abandonned him at lvl 80 as the number of CONQ was increasing.

GUARD seemed really unloved so attracted me, even if i could not prevent myself from thinking : "what is left to GUARD if the others can do the same job and deal DPS at the same time" ?

So actually, the choice is GUARD or CONQ...

[Civilix]

The guard is extreme in the most mundane way, what makes him special is that he got no edge(in pve).

The big positive is that that you dont have any negative, if there is a tanking job that needs doing the guard can do it.

The conq can also tank everything in the game, but there is usually a condition like if you have that piece of gear, if you have that build, if you have that AA, if if if...
The guard just picks up and goes, he can tank everything with almost any gear(within reason), he can manage with one build for all fights, AAs are good but not needed, overall it is just much easier to get started with.

But while the guardian is easy to get into it also have lots to learn when it comes to mastering the class, of the 3 soldiers it has the most buttons you can press to improve your performance.

For tanking the guard also have more than one AA feat that is good, something the conq is lacking. When it comes to featbuild there is really just one for the guard, there is a few points that are down to preferance but most points need to go the cookie cutter route.

[Suctum]

Since agro is mainly dps based now, go with a Conq or DT. Anything a Guard can do can be done just as well if not better on the other tank classes. Since they have protection on all the t4 and t5 armors, guardian tanking has been pretty obsolete since the advent of t4. Guards really only have STA and some decent bust hate, but they have not been the premier tanking class for a long time. Opening up all armor types to tanks was the first in a line of mistakes that have made guardian popularity and viability suffer, that and all the extra keybinds you need to play a guard well.

Personally, I have always liked the "idea" of a DT, but when you play one it hardly has the feel and coolness factor that a Shadowknight did in EQ. It's actually a very basic and boring class, that has all kinds of free damage you don't really need to work for.

[LunaticAsylumLA]

I would choose a Guardian, as it is the favorite class of the three soldiers for me. They provide a lot of group buffs and are as sturdy as it gets. You can change aggression when needed, PVP and deal insane damage, or just play with builds as much as you want (though any class allows that, I know).

[Shax84]

Since agro is mainly dps based now, go with a Conq or DT. Anything a Guard can do can be done just as well if not better on the other tank classes. Since they have protection on all the t4 and t5 armors, guardian tanking has been pretty obsolete since the advent of t4. Guards really only have STA and some decent bust hate, but they have not been the premier tanking class for a long time. Opening up all armor types to tanks was the first in a line of mistakes that have made guardian popularity and viability suffer, that and all the extra keybinds you need to play a guard well.

Personally, I have always liked the "idea" of a DT, but when you play one it hardly has the feel and coolness factor that a Shadowknight did in EQ. It's actually a very basic and boring class, that has all kinds of free damage you don't really need to work for.

The Guardians own dps is too low yes. However keep in mind Call to Arms and Battle Cry buffs. A Guardian that knows how to play has no problems sharing agro with most tanks except on magic voulnerable mobs. By opening a fight with Shield Slam + Cry of Havoc and Irritate, and activating Stall the Advance, and using Hateful Strikes when Stall wears off, the agro will likely be locked on the Guard for that period of time.

Guardians still have the best burst hate in game, and the best survivability. DT's trump the survivability only when they are allowed to do extreme damage.

Keep in mind that Guardian is the only class in game able to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzgfs6ENuao

[magnum92]

Since agro is mainly dps based now, go with a Conq or DT. Anything a Guard can do can be done just as well if not better on the other tank classes. Since they have protection on all the t4 and t5 armors, guardian tanking has been pretty obsolete since the advent of t4. Guards really only have STA and some decent bust hate, but they have not been the premier tanking class for a long time. Opening up all armor types to tanks was the first in a line of mistakes that have made guardian popularity and viability suffer, that and all the extra keybinds you need to play a guard well.

Personally, I have always liked the "idea" of a DT, but when you play one it hardly has the feel and coolness factor that a Shadowknight did in EQ. It's actually a very basic and boring class, that has all kinds of free damage you don't really need to work for.

In T5 and in Time trial setup groups, Guardian is fine, its actually the tank we prefer. why? Cause of heavy survivability not dependant on dpsing stuffies, a guard can kite and tank alooot of mobs in for example iron tower or Ai district without even hitting them all, they are often kinda spread around in those instances, where a DT would melt cause of the mobs being spread. The guard also have the most controlled and op ccs from the tanks, overwealming shout standing with your back to the target is one of the strongest aoe ccs ingame. followed up by another stun, 2kbs, makes it the perfect timetrial tank, and his dps buffs make up for the dps loss the tank have. Its funny people said that Guardians would be exluded from timetrial runs, but a guardian was the first one to get Veteran of the trials achievment, its a great class that can tank along with both dt and conq just fine on most encounters, pick guardian <3

[Boesch]

Guardians are tougher, especially right off the shelf with low gear, even more especially against magic damage. A Guardian doesn't need a whole lot of grinding (relatively speaking) compared to a Conqueror to be suitable as a main tank and ends up with a decent flexibility in gear (ie: can balance hit rating / hate / etc. more easily) because they are frankly tougher than Conquerors are. Conquerors are particularly flimsy against magic damage because not only do their feat trees and abilities provide little support here but their weapons don't either. A Conqueror with super awesome gear for magic fights is still barely on par with a Guardian with a hodge-podge of rubbish. Similarly on the same line because Guardians reach their target mitigation so much faster than Conquerors do they don't need to give up anywhere near the aggro tools that a Conqueror do. In summary, Guards make Conquerors are mockery in magic fights though it must be stated a Conqueror can do every fight - they just require oodles of gear, really a heap.

When you look at group versatility I think a Conqueror edges the Guardian. Guardians do have a very strong weapon damage buff that is seriously underrated, and Conqueror buffs are quite well known and very reasonable. Conquerors can lay down banners but generally it is my opinion that these are not worth the penalty of not using your discipline techniques as quickly. Conquerors come with a battle resurrection that is very, very useful.

DPS while tanking is certainly in a Conquerors favour though it should be pointed out that a Brute Conq are still the second lowest DPS class in the game; second lowest only to the Guardian you are comparing them too. Having said that, both can do okay DPS when going all out and you're likely to see some shameful numbers in PUGs. Do not be fooled into thinking that is the true potential DPS of the classes. Under ideal circumstances and in full defensive stance a Guardian is likely to approach 1000 DPS while a Conqueror is probably nudging 1400. I'd stress those are ideal circumstances when the groups are set up well and the stars are aligning, but they are doable and I think you should always aim high.

DPS when not tanking is not even a contest. Conquerors in carnage spec are a monster. My personal best on a single target raid boss fight (where the mitigations are normal) is 2600 (actually 2592 or thereabouts) (there's a lot of ifs and buts when dragging numbers out!) and no Guardian is getting near that. Carnage Conquerors are beastly but mind numbingly boring to play too. If you want spastic numbers try a Dark Templar, but be warned the OPness is equally balanced by the lack of skill in playing the class.

Skillwise they are pretty similar. If you are good at one you will be good at the other. I personally prefered my Conqueror simply because the DPS is sexier and it feels badass swinging a two handed sword around, kicking ass and taking names. There were times though when I would swap and good lord it felt like my Conqueror was missing out because my Guardian could take hits like a champ that my full T4 Conqueror would wilt under. I bet though there are times when Guardians are playing and their DPS is struggling to make the targets and they wish they could be Conquerors - I suppose the grass is always greener on the other side!

As a side note regarding what Moriala said above, I'm pretty sure a well played Conqueror could solo tank the Ti'an timetrial with a superstar team. It was one thing I always wanted to do but never got around to it.

In the end I would pick the one you think would be more fun stylistically to you but if you are constrained with time I would opt for a Guardian so you can do the real tanking without the pain of so much grinding first. If you have a raid group and gear isn't an issue, I'd lean towards Conqueror because of the increased versatility in gameplay they offer. Either way I greatly enjoyed both of them for their own reasons.