Most hated class?

[Korando-AoC]

You need to think and talk about class dynamics instead of open ended or anecdotal scenarios. If a single melee kill a demo 1v1, then it's due to the demo not having enough gear/AA/skill/game knowledge. Most of the time if a heavy does not resist a cc or two, they have no chance vs a demo 1v1 given equal footing in gear aa blah blah.

It's the heavy that has not enough gear / AA / skill if he dies 1 vs 1 versus a demo in one CC or two..

No skilled and geared conq / DT / Guard can die like that.

It's fun how you talk about class dynamics.
Everyone cries at "annoying" classes: sin, ranger, necro, and in lower measure demo (this according to this thread).
The only class of these which I'd nerf (at least a bit) is sin, because of crazy immunity.

Other classes have annoying mechanics, but none of them is OP imo.
They top kills, they kill im annoying ways (insta casts, very high bursts, etc), but everyone ignores (more or less intentionally) that they die fast (especially necros and demos, actually necros more than demos).

I really don't understand players who cry to remove demo speedbuff and CCs: this class has no bubble and cloth armor, what kind of dynamic and gameplay a demo player should use? Nuke and die?

Cry to nerf Ring of Fire instead, it's wave of flame that is annoying.
You can't remove CCs or speedbuff in a class that has nothing more to survive (no bubbles, cloth armor), otherwise where is "dynamic" you talk about?


And btw, no one mention Conqs, Guards, DTs, because their gameplay is less "annoying" than necro dots, demo insta casts, ranger ranged missiles, sin total immunity and crazy bombs.
But those are actually most unbalanced classes.

Cry to remove one bubble from conq, which has heavy armor and multiple bubbles, has much more sense than cry to remove speedbuff from demo.

From my experience, from PvP 7+ BS (with a good weapon) is more "OP" than demo.
And both classes don't come close to PoM or any of the tanks.

Anyway these are just my personal impressions, as a not really skilled or expert PvP player, and only as minigame player.

Also what makes a class OP?
Number of kills? K/D ratio?
Minigames are so dumb.. most people play just for kills.
BS is an awesome and fun class, made annoying by the fact that only few players really play to win the game (and actually, at least for me, it's fun to play BS to support and win).

And in the end, all is about fun, and often not OP classes are way more fun than OP ones.


/rant off

[Mathieulombardi]

What are you talking about. No soldier will die in two cc's. It's the fact that a demo can chain their abilities together in 1v1 situations against them. What kind of demo would stand still and get cone/single target/aoe stunned by a heavy? This already effectively cut off one of their limited number of ccs. Any melee will get cc'd and then kited by a demo as soon as they gain distance. And no heavy can resist your ccs half the time. Demo's high number of redundant ccs allows you to always keep distance vs a melee class given you're using the right ones at the right time.

We're not talking about overpowered classes or abilities, I wasn't. Nor did I suggest any one class should decrease in number of ccs. It's evident however, that range classes with high number of ccs is the most hated. Honestly if you're a ranger or demo and you're dying more than you kill, it's b/c you're not good enough, or the minigame is just too tilted against you. For the record, I've always maintained that pvp 10 guards are the most "op", followed closely by conqs, dts, and poms (spec dependent). Honestly, you have a sin, you should know how to deal with them in pvp, on all your classes.

[Korando-AoC]

It's evident however, that range classes with high number of ccs is the most hated.

Necro, Ranger, Sin, Demo are not hated because of the amount of CCs (or at least, that's not the main reason), but because of their mechanics: dots, insta casts, damage burst, traps, high damage ranged shots, etc.

Honestly if you're a ranger or demo and you're dying more than you kill, it's b/c you're not good enough, or the minigame is just too tilted against you.

This is true, but it's true for every class.
Any skilled and geared / AA player almost always kill more than dies, unless mini setup is unblanced and you are in wrong group.

Honestly, you have a sin, you should know how to deal with them in pvp, on all your classes.

To deal with a ** good ** sin in PvP as a demo is just impossible.
I don't mean that a demo can't survive or sometimes kills a good sin.
I mean that there is no balance in demo vs sin.
How to deal? Pop unholy protection at the right moment, break CC if rooted, and run run run... trying to meet your group and get help or just keep distance.
Demo needs the speedbuff.
A sin that you can kite and kill in 1 vs 1 when immunity is down is not a good sin.

[Mathieulombardi]

Necro ranger and demo are precisely hated for their ccs, which is a part of their mechanics. For the longest time the game was known as age of ccs. People hate being cc'd, to many it takes away from the skill of this game's pvp. There was also a time when it was referred to as the age of casters and rangers. Sins were hated b/c they were insanely op along with combo canceling that allowed them to mold no step combos. Now people hate them b/c they don't know how to deal with them.

To fight vs a good sin on any caster is very possible. The only time when you actually need to run continuously is when dull pain is up. The rest of time they're quite easy to handle b/c you know what sins can do.

The current balance scheme is completely broken. You have high cc and dmg classes that does well in pug minis. But place them in a competitive mini, or premade, they'd get wrecked b/c they're the focus of classes that can withstand the dmg, and negate the ccs. But that really has no bearings on this discussion. The most frequent from of pvp are pug minis, and in pug minis rangers and demos are hella annoying b/c of their high number of ccs that can be spent on one opponent before the next cycle can begin.

[Suctum]

Necro ranger and demo are precisely hated for their ccs, which is a part of their mechanics. For the longest time the game was known as age of ccs. People hate being cc'd, to many it takes away from the skill of this game's pvp. There was also a time when it was referred to as the age of casters and rangers. Sins were hated b/c they were insanely op along with combo canceling that allowed them to mold no step combos. Now people hate them b/c they don't know how to deal with them.

To fight vs a good sin on any caster is very possible. The only time when you actually need to run continuously is when dull pain is up. The rest of time they're quite easy to handle b/c you know what sins can do.

The current balance scheme is completely broken. You have high cc and dmg classes that does well in pug minis. But place them in a competitive mini, or premade, they'd get wrecked b/c they're the focus of classes that can withstand the dmg, and negate the ccs. But that really has no bearings on this discussion. The most frequent from of pvp are pug minis, and in pug minis rangers and demos are hella annoying b/c of their high number of ccs that can be spent on one opponent before the next cycle can begin.

First of all, who are these demo's getting all these kills? It's either Balacai playing his demo, Anatu when he logs, or me and maybe 2 other people. I don't see hardly anyone playing a demo who does well consistently. 2nd of all when I say lowbie, I mean low PvP levels, not twink 39 minis. I have always said and will continue to say twink minis are stupid. Classes are very unbalanced at these levels and the special trick of higher level quest item rewards for an "edge" was always the reason people did these anyways. Let's all hide our equipment at 39 and 59 lol to all of that.

Next, I never said a new Ranger or Sin would get top kills against geared toons. What I am saying is that you can instantly become "competitive" with very few AA and limited gear, "Competitive" does not mean you will be raping people, but you can make enough of a difference to affect the outcome of the mini. Even without great gear, a ranger is still a threat. Just some T1 and the easily aquired Yak bow is enough to see 2-3K crit from Pen Shot and TTS. Sins depend on gear a little more but you can easily grind enough 6-mans to get gear. PvP armor for a sin is not a nesscesity, so even needing PvP levels to do well enough is not even needed.

Do either of these classes have the ability to top kills in a lowbie status? Depends on the player but not really. But you can make a difference where other classes with equally bad gear or AA would just be free targets. People hate Rangers and Sins because of how easy it is to affect the outcome of a mini with such instant win abilities like DWW/GC/Bomb/GB and LB/TTS and instant KB.

The OP was about the most hated classes, and by far it's Ranger and Sin. These are the 2 classes ANYONE can get on and still affect to some degree the outcome of a mini with limited time and gear spent on that toon.

I would really like to see who these demo's are who are causing all this QQ, because other than maybe 5 people when I see a demo it's almost always a free kill. Unless it's someone like Anatu, Balacai...ect...

As to premades, bringing a clothie into a premade has been fail for a while now. You do not do enough burst DPS to drop soldiers quicky enough with the amount of gear being run nowadays. It's almost always a soldier chasing the clothie around where the game becomes 5v5 while he kites. If they ask for help it's 3v5 and the 3 left fighting the 5 most likely will get wiped. So instead of pulling someone to help the clothie, the clothie either lives long enough to get back to the other 4 or dies. Kiting doing instants will do very little damage to a Guard, while just one CW can crit that clothie up to 4k+.

CC's don't last like they used to, and soldiers having just 1 CC break is huge, considering a guard can Last Stand and also has innately high Stun resists. You can only CC to a point, and even then just long enough to get away maybe once. There is no such thing as burning a soldier down solo before your CC lock ends. It takes 2-3 people focusing fire on a soldier to take them down quick enough to force them to run. We are talking real premades, a full PvP 9 or 10 Guard with heavy AA's and great gear. You are NOT burning him quick without assistance.

So bringing a caster to a premade is not always the best option when considering line up, why would you even bring that up.

[Mathieulombardi]

I never said you said win at low pvp levels either. Most of the time I used "and or". Just pointing out where you're wrong, like low pvp level rangers won't have 8% speed buff when they don't even have invigoration trained in most cases. Any average player will be wise to the fact that they're new and start banging on them right away for easy kills. New toons just won't be competitive no mater what. Which new ranger do you know have both high number of decisive trained as well as TTS (not to mention your speed buff assertion).

All classes depend on gear and AA. It just that some classes have specs that allow them to survive better and hit harder than others when they don't have even half of their wards filled out(eg hex mark, dull pain etc). All your other empty assertions like instant win abilities, none of them are instant win. Sins that spam dww/gb are easiest to deal with. New rangers that don't use up/down preloads do abs no dmg. The reason why they're hated is how they act like casters at high pvp levels and gear, negate the need to preload and still do high dmg. Any range class can stand on a ledge and hit from afar. However sins still need to get close, into the fray to use those abilities.

You can say any class can do well or poor. The only differences is whether classes are easy to play or not. Ranger demo necro are just the easiest to play. Hence they do well more frequently throughtout all level ranges. And I'm not arguing that rangers are the most hated. It's what I said in the first place.

[Suctum]

I never said you said win at low pvp levels either. Most of the time I used "and or". Just pointing out where you're wrong, like low pvp level rangers won't have 8% speed buff when they don't even have invigoration trained in most cases. Any average player will be wise to the fact that they're new and start banging on them right away for easy kills. New toons just won't be competitive no mater what. Which new ranger do you know have both high number of decisive trained as well as TTS (not to mention your speed buff assertion).

All classes depend on gear and AA. It just that some classes have specs that allow them to survive better and hit harder than others when they don't have even half of their wards filled out(eg hex mark, dull pain etc). All your other empty assertions like instant win abilities, none of them are instant win. Sins that spam dww/gb are easiest to deal with. New rangers that don't use up/down preloads do abs no dmg. The reason why they're hated is how they act like casters at high pvp levels and gear, negate the need to preload and still do high dmg. Any range class can stand on a ledge and hit from afar. However sins still need to get close, into the fray to use those abilities.

You can say any class can do well or poor. The only differences is whether classes are easy to play or not. Ranger demo necro are just the easiest to play. Hence they do well more frequently throughtout all level ranges. And I'm not arguing that rangers are the most hated. It's what I said in the first place.

I have plenty of 80's that I time train and do nothing with. My Guard for example I made 4 months ago is still wearing level 60 gear but has 4/5 DS/PS and 4/5 Invigoration as well 3/5 AA break and STA as well as 2/5 CW and 3/5 point in champion spirit. Not too mention some passive AA wards and a few other things as well.

Just because your a lowbie PvP level or what can be considered a "fresh" 80 to pvp does not mean you go into it with out some help.

I can name a ton of PvP 2-4 Rangers that have a ton of Mastery but perhaps little Prowess. My sin for example at PvP 1 I already had master assasin, 5/5 for liberation and DS/PS and movement modifer all 5/5 before I took him into 80 minis.

Certainly no true fresh 80 with 0 AA and Blue gear will do anything but die, but take a time-trained Ranger in with DS/PS and TTS with some T1+ PvE gear and a Yak Bow, sure, you can easily be considered "comepetitive" against much higher leveled and geared players by the nature of how easymode that class can be. You could have never PvPed on that toon ever and instantly do well your first game with limited gear and AA. That's my point.

When I consider my Demo is close to maxing out 100% AA, having 3-4 minor perks maxed and one major perk is limited AA. In just 2-3 months of time training toons I never play regulary, you can get enough AA to compete for some classes, like Ranger and Sin.

Of course I never unsubbed since release, so I have been time training now for a few years. lol

[Mathieulombardi]

You shouldn't change the circumstances again. There are plenty of 80 pvp lvl 0-2 players who can bring out their pve tier 3-4 rangers/sin/demo with half to full AA. Stick to your original:

"Demo's have always been a powerful class minus launch release (pretty crap then), but not everyone can get on one and be instant win like a Ranger or sometimes a Sin.

"By far Ranger is the most idiot-proof class playabe in game followed closely by Sin. Both of these classes need minimal gear and AA to be instantly effective,".

Let's be honest, you think a rogue will get invited to any GS khitai sixmans if they don't have both FH and TW? TTS/MA take 720 to train too, and with a sin, most are asked to train cover of dusk first. This is also not counting 3-4 out of 5 in both pressing/decisive, invigoration, nimble, nor cc break aa. "Minimal gear and AA" and be competitive on sin/ranger just isn't plausible.

[Suctum]

You shouldn't change the circumstances again. There are plenty of 80 pvp lvl 0-2 players who can bring out their pve tier 3-4 rangers/sin/demo with half to full AA. Stick to your original:

"Demo's have always been a powerful class minus launch release (pretty crap then), but not everyone can get on one and be instant win like a Ranger or sometimes a Sin.

"By far Ranger is the most idiot-proof class playabe in game followed closely by Sin. Both of these classes need minimal gear and AA to be instantly effective,".

Let's be honest, you think a rogue will get invited to any GS khitai sixmans if they don't have both FH and TW? TTS/MA take 720 to train too, and with a sin, most are asked to train cover of dusk first. This is also not counting 3-4 out of 5 in both pressing/decisive, invigoration, nimble, nor cc break aa. "Minimal gear and AA" and be competitive on sin/ranger just isn't plausible.

What's minimal AA and gear. Minimal AA to me is having only 1 major perk and a few minor ones. By the time you hit 80 and do several AA quests, you can get around 3-6 points for free just to start with. Doing just 2-3 nights of 6 mans will net you enough AA to start time training one major perk. Sure, you need TW/FH but it takes hardly anytime to get mastery. Do yag a few times and less than a week later you can have several Faction purples, a major AA perk trained, and decent Khitai weapons and rings. So in 2 weeks or less you can gear out a Ranger to be quite effective in PvP.

2 weeks to become "competitive" in PvP is pretty damned fast considering I have been playing my demo for 5 years to max myself out.

So 2 weeks put into a toon after hitting 80 is minimal gear, AA, and investment. Even a month is minimal investment as far as Funcom grind is concerned. I never said a Ranger or Sin can be "competitive" with ZERO AA, but certianly minimal AA compared to a fully feated Tree...sure.

My point is that these to classes need the least amount of AA, Gear, and time investment to be instantly effective as opposed to others because of how they work.

[Korando-AoC]

Necro ranger and demo are precisely hated for their ccs, which is a part of their mechanics. For the longest time the game was known as age of ccs. People hate being cc'd, to many it takes away from the skill of this game's pvp. There was also a time when it was referred to as the age of casters and rangers. Sins were hated b/c they were insanely op along with combo canceling that allowed them to mold no step combos. Now people hate them b/c they don't know how to deal with them.

I can't comment about old game status.
I'm a pretty recent player (started playing AoC in beginning 2011) and even more recent pvper (started pvping 1 year ago).

In current game status, I doubt that people hates those classes mostly for CCs.
Sure demo detonation and ranger traps are annoying, but hate necro for what? fear?
About CCs, I hate more conq / pom knockback, considering those classes have even some (not only one) bubbles and burst damage aswell (insane burst for pom).

To fight vs a good sin on any caster is very possible. The only time when you actually need to run continuously is when dull pain is up. The rest of time they're quite easy to handle b/c you know what sins can do.

You are too generic, and I doubt you have really played a caster vs good a sin.
Lotus overload is the real problem, not Dull Pain.
It procs every time a critical hit strikes the sin, and with today crit rating it means that at it procs every time (even if proc ratio was nerfed in some quite recent patch; I didn't play caster before but I can imagine how that was fun before for demo/necros.... ).
Dull pain is even more stupid cause a sin can use even it when Lotus overload is down.

Total immunity is up for an amount of time that a good sin can kill a decent demo 3 times if he doesn't run.. it means that a sin has the time to kill the demo 3 times while the demo can't do nothing.. as you said: "quite easy to handle b/c you know what sins can do."
Yes, he can kill you.


Show me a sin vs demo balanced duel.
It's simply dull how a sin is easy way vs a caster.

This is why I "hate" sins.
CCs? Yes I don't like charge - root, but Immunity is sin's annoying stuff.