The art of tanking

[henryabccba]

As a guardian who played the game since 2008, I want to share some views about tanking and tanks. I am not saying I am pro and I must correct, I just want to make discussion with you guys.

The art of tanking for me is not only about aggro lock or dps, i am not saying aggro/dps is not important, but they are just few factors /basic to be a decent tank. Most tanks always top aggro and think they are good, but for me its not. The art of tanking is about how frequently you can swap aggro with another tank, the higher frequency you can swap the more health each tank can regen health in time buffers. If you aggro lock to take hits it wastes the time buffer for other full health tanks to regen health. I won't say you are great if you can top aggro but I will if you can swap aggro with me for every one/two hits from the boss. You may say its crazy or impossible but it actually works. However I think only guardian has the tools to make it possible, it is really hard to control aggro table with only czy dps from DT/conq. In the past I always use another DT/conq as my "human dread shadow", I play the role to control the aggro swap in whole fight. It works very fine, I can get/release very well. However this situation changed after people getting T4 gears, DT/conq's dps start out dpsing guardian's hate tools. In a long run guardian will never keep up aggro with dps spec dt/conq, if you say guard can keep up aggro with DT/conq in long run, it means guardian's coh/call to arm/destroyer buff can generate 1000+dps like hate, however it is not, if our hate tools have 1000+dps threat even a noob guard will never lose aggro. Actually guardian can do fine dps in S&B, but it needs to forgo massive survivability to compete with DT/conq while the best attack is the best defense for DT and conq has bubbles, what guardian remains if go dps spec is just crap mitigation . DT already violates the role of tank, the more dps the longer he can survive but the wider aggro gap between another tank.

And I want to talk about what make this gap between guardian and T4 DT/conq , the initial aggro is actually very balance for 3 tank classes, but the situation will change after DT stack up his vom, his dps will out aggro guardian's hate tools very soon and aggro lock, so the role to control the aggro swap will be changed from guard to DT, if DT does not slow down dps guard will never get aggro unless he goads, and this is a very unhealthy play style because you can't goad again in short if that DT keep doing czy dps and he will die if he is tanking high tier boss and he will still fine with a dread if its lower tier boss.

So what are the causes of this problem?
1. T4 gear:
T4 gears generate a big gap between Dt/conq 's dps and guardian's hate tools, I remember when I am doing T4 progression, my guard can handle the fight with DT/conq very well, but after we down zodiac - entity the thing changed. Dt can health tap enough to make himself alive for his own, even his tap is not enough he can still use a dread as buffer to heal up full health and repeat. imo T4 gears should be turn down abit.

2. Encounter design:
Why people think DT/conq are better than guard is mainly due to the encounter design. Why DT/conq can aggro lock? Its because they can keep dpsing a stupid boss for more than 1min, its no doubt that most fights in game is stupid like that but if you are in a fight that need movements, taking big hits and hold dps you will see how weak a dps spec DT is, such as fort rhino, fort commander, louhi, emperor, wyrm, archfiend of gore. You will see guardian shine in these fights for their better passive defense/aggro swap. And you will see how terrible a guard is in a fight like zodiac that stand still for 20mins to dps. I really hope funcom can create more encounters that need movements to play.

3. AA/buff:
I think everyone knows what is vom, and it is one of the cause. It gives DT so much sustain dps while guard can only hold a short period initial aggro with STA. I am not saying you must use STA, but if you use counterweight, you lose massive survivability and...why not play a DT/conq if you want dps??
The another problem is the guadian's buffs, the usefulness of guardian is definitely his short cd group dmg buff call to arm/battle cry, guardian grants the firepower to group mates and keep turtle/little hate increase for himself. It makes the situation worse cos guadian gives DT the power to do more dps while he is still doing retard dps, it is a really big contradiction, I want aggro but I give you more buffs to dps lol.

Why play a guardian?
Even guardian cannot compete aggro with dps spec DT/conq in 90% stand still fights, but guardian can still hold very good aggro from any other dps classes. The most challenging encounters that need movements, good aggro swap and protection, guardian is still the best tank but I think it is only 10% or less in our game content.
Although the style of tanking nowadays trends to be dpsing, but I still believe the art of tanking is not like that.

[bolas]

2. Encounter design:
Why people think DT/conq are better than guard is mainly due to the encounter design. Why DT/conq can aggro lock? Its because they can keep dpsing a stupid boss for more than 1min, its no doubt that most fights in game is stupid like that but if you are in a fight that need movements, taking big hits and hold dps you will see how weak a dps spec DT is, such as fort rhino, fort commander, louhi, emperor, wyrm, archfiend of gore. You will see guardian shine in these fights for their better passive defense/aggro swap. And you will see how terrible a guard is in a fight like zodiac that stand still for 20mins to dps. I really hope funcom can create more encounters that need movements to play.

U are 110% right on this point. But sadly, 99% of the boss fights are simply tank spank where DT's/Conq Shines.

[Boesch]

I don't know the best way to write this without coming off rude, so I'll just put it out there.

With all due respect Henry you are an excellent player however the way you play your guard is long outdated and that is where your aggro problems are.

The last I know you were running both Iron Skin + Stone Skin + Burning Vigor + Surging Health. Nowadays it is all about hate and DPS and people that continue to play soldiers as turtles will never see the aggro that they think they can. People just need to play their characters more aggressively.

I am not at all convinced that Guardians have an aggro problem though on pure tank and spank fights where the boss has no movement DTs are stupendously far ahead of everything else.

[KullOfValusia]

Slowly but surely, more people are coming onto my boat. Welcome aboard the "Is Guardian really a AoC Class?" cruiseliner! Where we'll spend our days being the walking paperweights we are! ... More and more endgame raid guilds can now pad their T4 runs with DTs/Conqs..hooray!

[cins]

^^He's right. What are the best pve battles? Things like Commander Kamangir/Commander Yeng-Wang-Yeh/Osseous Abomination (very simple mechanics with tough movement) or Thoth Amon/Emperor (shitloads of easy mechanics to keep everyone busy) or General Sheng/Archfiend of Gore (both of those at the same time). What are the worst pve battles? Sabazios, Athry-Bast, Hollow Knight, Entity (everyone except a few lucky or random people who have something to do will stand still and mash buttons until loot drops).
We need better bosses for both dungeons and raids.
...
Also there's something that personally disturbs me very much in Secret World, which is extreme focus on dps at high end pve. Over there, playerbase seem to consider having enough firepower to defeat a boss before he/she/it can even start to use their interesting abilities to be a good thing (which is dumb). Look at all the "X boss done in 30 seconds" videos on youtube. Does anyone really think "burn down Favored of Louhi before he wakes up" was the more entertaining way of winning?
Protip: Anyone whose answer is yes should get their head checked.

My worry is that kind of ****ed up mentality is slowly creeping towards us, caused by the embarrasingly inflated amount of "deeps" put out by a group/raid in full T4s. DT/conq power in spankfests seems to me as a warning bell for that. And yet there's huge amounts of crying about "moar powah" from raidhamsters who demand T5.

Saddest thing is, today FC's best course of action would likely be to feed the hamsters with a T5. They're the ones who open their purses wide.

[bogus]

Why "My guard sux, dt/conq is op" aren't closed by default by now as flame source? What I'm going to say may surprise you but - you didn't say anything new, there was legion like you before.

And we had even answer. Not direct, but about mages (or HoX in particular) revamp. There is no resources for system balances when we demand new content.

So, grow up and learn to live with it or find yourself new playground. Just don't be another whinning kiddo.

[tman1991]

cins -- I'm pretty sure you are one of the "hamsters". And yes bring on T5 pls!.. Just say no anything less than T5.

[ssnowsurfer]

Of all my toons, the Guardian is my favorite, but their dps needs boosted to remain relevant.

[KullOfValusia]

Why "My guard sux, dt/conq is op" aren't closed by default by now as flame source? What I'm going to say may surprise you but - you didn't say anything new, there was legion like you before.

And we had even answer. Not direct, but about mages (or HoX in particular) revamp. There is no resources for system balances when we demand new content.

So, grow up and learn to live with it or find yourself new playground. Just don't be another whinning kiddo.

Dude, this is Henryx man, he like wrote the book on tanking (like oldschool Beta AoC) and practically is a one man compendium on all things AoC...and also is 99% of the AoC marketing team.

And yeah, Guard (at least S&B) needs like a 25%~50% DPS boost. That in itself will fix SO MUCH (practically everything). We'll see what happens in the future.

[Petridish]

Also there's something that personally disturbs me very much in Secret World, which is extreme focus on dps at high end pve. Over there, playerbase seem to consider having enough firepower to defeat a boss before he/she/it can even start to use their interesting abilities to be a good thing (which is dumb). Look at all the "X boss done in 30 seconds" videos on youtube. Does anyone really think "burn down Favored of Louhi before he wakes up" was the more entertaining way of winning?

At least they addressed the quick burn 'strategy' on Louhi right? Which suggests that Funcom don't intend for us to overpower their encounters ...