Unleash the bear shaman

[Rathothis]

I don't think you can even get a general idea yet with this sample size. The numbers are not nearly big enough yet to say something about class strength. For that to happen there need to be a sufficiently big enough sample size (without one player playing in more then 1 premade in the sample) to factor out different skill on players.

That's why I explicitly noted that the sample size was very small. Sure this is not a scientic exercise. But the thread reflects impressions from recent premades, so it is still interesting to look at this data, even if it is not representative and thus should not influence class revamps (which will not be coming anyway).

[Caudilloo]

That's why I explicitly noted that the sample size was very small. Sure this is not a scientic exercise. But the thread reflects impressions from recent premades, so it is still interesting to look at this data, even if it is not representative and thus should not influence class revamps (which will not be coming anyway).

I agree it's fun to look at. I found the topic with the guy that collected a lot of data in pug minigames interesting too and it is a shame that we can not find results (and preferably even more stats like damage dealt, healing given, number of targets damaged, number of targets finished off etc etc etc) from finished minigames somewhere without having to participate or rely on a big community initiative.

Heck, I would love if all those stats were publicly accessible so people could build tools that automatically process and combine all that data. I remember years ago I played Battlefield 2 a lot and it would be so much fun and a great motivation to improve when you were rivaling against players that had similar stats or against that one player that had the record of most kills on you etc.

Makes me wonder if Funcom has (and uses) those kind of tools to get an indication of what class needs what.

[Vasylyos]

It really amazes me how you make simple things so confusing. It all comes to simple factors like:

1. Sustained and burst dps:On both cases tos and pom are way better that bs by a long way
2. CCs: Pom is a monster in that case, Tos comes 2nd but competing for 1rst place and BS has maybe worse CCs ingame
3. Mitigations: As it was written above PoM has better armor and Tos better protection
4. Oh **** bubbles: Pom has 2 innates (one with awesome retributive dmg), ToS can specc for one too without losing much I think and BS can specc the worse one (O.5sec cast time with slow applying effect) and if he does he loses most dps features. Before you say anything yes I know of the enrage effect.
5. Gameplay: Both casters have the advantage of distance and aoe dps whereas the BS has no aoe dps (unless you count manifestation hitting for 74dmg, just LOL)


Now comments like ''BS is the best healer ingame'' and just laughable. As it is logical an extraordinary player can make any class work however in end the limited potential of the class will limit the player also.

I could get into details as i know pom and bs classes very well (dont have tos) but I wont bother. At some point developers and players alike need to recognise that the bs will need to get on par with the other healers. I play PvP (the only place where we can be competitive vs them) and i see less than 5 players able to go positive on BS, 4 of them being r10 with T3 crafted 2HB and I guess full AA

[Lurvi]

tos is a top priority target

distance advantage argument is not all true for tos. a tos has to expose itself, as a result can very easily be deleted, and this happens a lot! normally tos can go 10-20 kills, but ofte have a similiar number of deaths.

a dead tos does nothing. a bear will more likely be alive.

in the scoreboard tos gets kills like a necro cause of trash damage. not to say a tos can't wipe a team out when the moment is right, but a tos spending more time dead and running back to the fight? bear might not be so bad.

this is the hard part of playing tos. balancing agression (pushing with momentum) and staying alive.

a bears strength is that it usually isn't focused. you can make good use of that.

[Spreadicus]

tos is a top priority target

.

This is incorrect the tos is harmless please ignore the tos, thank you.

[Wheya]

tos is a top priority target

distance advantage argument is not all true for tos. a tos has to expose itself, as a result can very easily be deleted, and this happens a lot! normally tos can go 10-20 kills, but ofte have a similiar number of deaths.

a dead tos does nothing. a bear will more likely be alive.

in the scoreboard tos gets kills like a necro cause of trash damage. not to say a tos can't wipe a team out when the moment is right, but a tos spending more time dead and running back to the fight? bear might not be so bad.

this is the hard part of playing tos. balancing agression (pushing with momentum) and staying alive.

a bears strength is that it usually isn't focused. you can make good use of that.

Allow me to create a new class just as an example - the Ninja. The Ninja does have pretty much very similar mitigation values as an assassin. The differences between mitigation between Ninja and assassin are about the same as the differences between tos and bs. Everything else is pretty similar compared with assassin.
Now let us assume some players can not handle playing assassin because assassin gets too often focused. Squishy little glass cannon.
To address this problem of assassins of being focussed too often we grant the Ninja 50% less dmg than assassin, everything else stays similar. I see a majority of assassin players switch to the new Ninja class because the Ninja gets less often focussed.

[Lurvi]

you seem to take my points as if they are black and white, wheya. extreme example... but ok

yes, tos does 50% more damage (actually it's more like 100%, before the tos dies)
but so often the major bulk of it is trashdamage, you loose the teamfight cause you died too soon, and you repeat, yet as enemies die, you get killcredit.

bear could have space to threaten enemy priority target instead, single target, damage is the same as tos. yes this shifts more focus to other teammates, so it comes at a cost.

still, I think bear is still playable, and has _some_ of that ninja in it. I'll take it! it can pump out heals aswell. not saying I favor bear, I was trying to defend what khramps said as seriously as I could.

the toses power is crazy in the right hands and a team to push with. bear shaman just can't compete. but running a tos is a risk, as the enemy can easily punish it. and maybe vs. certain teams, or along certain teammates a bear would shine more than thought.

either way, got to experiment with it in premades then we can talk more. current samplesize is only making room for misconceptions. as I see already forming through K/D obsession, with no mind to what is really happening in the game.

[Khramps]

5/5 Balance of Nature > Every other feat in the game.

[Lurvi]

it is up there, and hasn't been mentioned here yet! it is another one of the hidden factors of a bs.

not all classes benefit that greatly from it though. cooldown on dash is quite low. very rarely encountered issues on tos, or hox for that matter. necro / demo different story I guess.

a lot of talk around bear here! we need to make bear only premades :>

[Korando-AoC]

a lot of talk around bear here! we need to make bear only premades :>

Not Bear only, but we need premades.
That's the only thing that makes me want still to play.
Not minis, and I don't even want to hear "PvE", for how it is in its current state.

Lurvi get back and play.

Just to not make this post completely out of topic: yesterday we tested some builds in Duels with Vasylos.
Imo Booming Roar build is the best for duels, since it allows to debuff opponent very fast, but is a lot overrated for minigames (premades included).
I did not test BR extensively, but this is just my impression.
My playstyle fits better Mutilation build, since it is the build I am (I was) most used to.

Unfortunately I do not have time anymore to shape up and run new tests, so I have to stick with what I learned already.
But I would say Muti > BR for minigames, even if both builds are highly viable, and BS has 3 good viable builds for minigames (Iron Hide included), and in different games one can becone better than the others.

Just opening a discussion.