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Thread: T5 Vistrix nerf?

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgomir View Post
    tos/pom are trying to keep tanks alive - which already is a full-time job; they don't have spare time to play with minions
    hox is dead before even finishing ultra slow minion-oneshot combo
    demo can kill only one every second wave
    even with detonation, u still need luck to have incinerate running on the minions for the oneshot
    - they may die fast, but if my demo casts an aoe on all 4 minions, they kill me before my oneshot is halfway through...

    you didn't read my post to the end, did ya?
    anyway, maybe I should have rephrased it: in a PROGRESSION raid, you need 3 necros...
    Youre phrasing it like 1 player should deal with adds. If youre a bunch of players doing it together the aggro will be shared amongst you, and like red said they are also CC:able. Its fully possible without necros if people have awareness and quickly help eachother when they spawn. Its not unreasonable to demand this from t5 raiders imo.
    Last edited by magnum92; 16th August 2016 at 00:59.
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  2. #22

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    Of the people I know whose guilds have struggled with Vistrix the problems have been heart of fire and/or funeral flames. I didn't know anybody was having trouble with the the minion adds.

    The fight could use a slight detuning but Funcom never seems to be able to do that without completely ruining it (see T3.5 and T4 current states).

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgomir View Post
    tos/pom are trying to keep tanks alive - which already is a full-time job; they don't have spare time to play with minions
    hox is dead before even finishing ultra slow minion-oneshot combo
    demo can kill only one every second wave
    even with detonation, u still need luck to have incinerate running on the minions for the oneshot
    - they may die fast, but if my demo casts an aoe on all 4 minions, they kill me before my oneshot is halfway through...

    you didn't read my post to the end, did ya?
    anyway, maybe I should have rephrased it: in a PROGRESSION raid, you need 3 necros...
    Adds are no problem. There is this cast bar, you know, it says "masters call" and then you ease up on the aoe.... Necros are indeed most efficient in handling minions, but they don't hit hard (of course four of them do) and can be cc'd. Detonation every minute and it is no luck involved in casting hellfire stream on it before detonation. You got a bad spec if you don't have instant hellfire stream with incinerate. HoX can oneshot 2-3 minions with his combo and I don't see the problem because how can the hox pull agro on four mobs and die? HoX oneshot is a onestep and no problem. You are overexaggerating and making problems out of what is not problems.

    For tanks and other people new to the fight it is the "no warning" Heart of Fire that is reason for most wipes. And not spreading on Funeral Flames, swapping on Rake, or getting rooted while spreading out on Funeral Flames detonation. My suggestion would help a lot. Particle effect on the guys getting Heart of Fire - got that on other stuff like Blood Draw, Miasma, Aquiring Targets, Mortal Affliction.. I see no problems on adding this to Vistrix' Heart of Fire. It's not a nerf even, just visual help for the players. Also make the boss ignore Dread Shadows to solve the double Funeral Flames cast.

  4. #24

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    There are some things that make the fight unbearable.
    • Healer aggro making the destroyer run to vistrix when the healer ports
    • Dread shadow causing funeral flames to go whack
    • Port group sometimes getting rooted, sometimes not getting rooted, based on how slow or fast they take augmenter to 25%

    If those 3 things were fixed the fight would have less random elements that cause a wipe. It's understandable that anyone doing progression there is getting stuck with those things happening randomly.
    Last edited by Scaevacas; 16th August 2016 at 09:06. Reason: too much spacing
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  5. #25

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    There's just nothing wrong with Vistrix, it's a well balanced boss that just needs a few people to have a good understanding of their class and the raid to be able to move at the right times and pay attention to a few things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgomir View Post
    you didn't read my post to the end, did ya?
    anyway, maybe I should have rephrased it: in a PROGRESSION raid, you need 3 necros...
    Sorry but it just sounds like you're doing it wrong if you're relying on all those minion kills. If they get pulled into the DPS group and those DPSers focus them a little bit they die in a matter of seconds and don't harm anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scaevacas View Post
    There are some things that make the fight unbearable.
    • Healer aggro making the destroyer run to vistrix when the healer ports
    • Dread shadow causing funeral flames to go whack
    • Port group sometimes getting rooted, sometimes not getting rooted, based on how slow or fast they take augmenter to 25%

    If those 3 things were fixed the fight would have less random elements that cause a wipe. It's understandable that anyone doing progression there is getting stuck with those things happening randomly.
    There's only one thing that's actually random here, the other 2 are predictable enough to be easily countered;
    - I agree about the Destroyers healer aggro, happens rarely but it is annoying.
    - Use dreads after Funeral Flames, not before, they're better after it anyway because they'll eat Rake (or be up if a tank eats it to take some hits).
    - It's predictable whether port group will get rooted, red buff - immune to heart of fire/root, black buff - not immune to it (never get black buff if you kill the Augmentor before he completes his cast at 25%). It can be something to handle if you get rooted running back to the boss, but if those porting save their banes they can just free themselves and carry on.
    Last edited by Evito; 16th August 2016 at 09:41.
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  6. #26

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    Too many random factors and complicated tactic.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evito View Post
    Sorry but it just sounds like you're doing it wrong if you're relying on all those minion kills. If they get pulled into the DPS group and those DPSers focus them a little bit they die in a matter of seconds and don't harm anyone.
    maybe - as we still are in progression phase (best try was 23% or alike), we just need to find the best tactic working for US.

    all you guys are in elite guilds doing t5/t6 since it's live - there are other guilds out there as well, pls don't forget!
    - and WE just have big problems with those minions if there are no/not-enough necros in raid, that's all I wanted to say...
    (that's ofc not our only problem; just a big one - minions almost always directly running to MT healers, killing them quickly)


    we encountered once, that a Pom in the MT group always died when there was a port-group Sin in his group and Pom used Holy Cleansing when Sin had ported
    - sounds like a bug to me as the Pom was miles away from destroyer/augmenter; any clues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shax84 View Post
    Adds are no problem. There is this cast bar, you know, it says "masters call" and then you ease up on the aoe.... Necros are indeed most efficient in handling minions, but they don't hit hard (of course four of them do) and can be cc'd. Detonation every minute and it is no luck involved in casting hellfire stream on it before detonation. You got a bad spec if you don't have instant hellfire stream with incinerate. HoX can oneshot 2-3 minions with his combo and I don't see the problem because how can the hox pull agro on four mobs and die? HoX oneshot is a onestep and no problem. You are overexaggerating and making problems out of what is not problems.
    wrong.

    1) they do hit hard on clothies (~2.5k), two hits (or was it even three?) during slow "I eat your heart" cast; demo will die if two adds are on him
    2) hellfire stream will only affect the targetted minion with incinerate, not all around - for this you need wave of flames or some other aoe cast!
    - as those come with little chance of applying incinerate, there IS luck involved :-(
    (and yes, I know about Hellfire Stream hitting all in line to the targetted one; again luck needed to have them all in a nice straight line...)
    3) I dont know about HoX myself, but our (high dps) HoX always complained about dying on minions, I just wrote it down here...
    4) how can HoX pull aggro? lol, one Hellfire Breath make them all going after him imediately :-/
    Last edited by Anzu; 17th August 2016 at 12:26.

  8. #28

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    I agree the healer aggro which makes destoyer run should be fixed. I don't see any harm in a 'warning' particle for heart of fire either but the problems with the adds you describe simply sounds like a correctly working mechanic you just haven't quite mastered yes.

    For arguments sake lets say you have a balanced raid but no necros and in stead one extra demo and ranger. You now have 8 ranged dps in the dps group tot pull the adds off the tanks and their healers. Since the adds spawn after a cast it should be no problem to get ranged aoe on them within 2 seconds after they spawn. When they run for the dps group you don't need a single minion kill. If dps switches to the adds when they arrive they die within 5 seconds. To make it even safer for yourself you can have your rangers rotate knockback traps when they come close. Or pom/BS can rotate aoe CC. Or hoxes, or toses, even demo's van lock multiple targets down at the same time. See where I'm going or is it too much to ask from raiders in T5 to use more them their 2 dps spells? You can even kill them before they hit anyone at all. Take it from someone that has done several kills without a single necro in raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgomir View Post

    we encountered once, that a Pom in the MT group always died when there was a port-group Sin in his group and Pom used Holy Cleansing when Sin had ported
    - sounds like a bug to me as the Pom was miles away from destroyer/augmenter; any clues?
    Not a bug. The pom affects the sin with holy cleansing and does damage tot the augmentor without having the buff from the teleport tot protect him from the retributive damage. Perfectly working as intended.
    Last edited by Caudilloo; 17th August 2016 at 02:30.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgomir View Post
    wrong.

    1) they do hit hard on clothies (~2.5k), two hits (or was it even three?) during slow "I eat your heart" cast; demo will die if two adds are on him
    My terminology of being hit hard on a non-tank, is a two-shot. So in an encounter you know you're gonna take some damage from various sources, beefing up rather than do the fight with 6500 health is a good idea. I never had issue with dying from the adds neither on Demo or Barb. Use Hands of the Underworld and kite if necessary and yell at healers DON'T SLACK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgomir View Post
    2) hellfire stream will only affect the targetted minion with incinerate, not all around - for this you need wave of flames or some other aoe cast!
    - as those come with little chance of applying incinerate, there IS luck involved :-(
    (and yes, I know about Hellfire Stream hitting all in line to the targetted one; again luck needed to have them all in a nice straight line...)
    Hit shift+tab to target the furthest back mob, thats a valuable tip for nuking worms at Yakhmar too. Anyway there is no point in afflicting more than one since Detonation only kill the targeted mob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgomir View Post
    3) I dont know about HoX myself, but our (high dps) HoX always complained about dying on minions, I just wrote it down here...
    Your (high dps) hox has a spell called Phoenix Cloak and a fast root, and stun on demonic transformation. Preload the oneshot combo and hit finisher while targeting the back mob. Be smart, not stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgomir View Post
    4) how can HoX pull aggro? lol, one Hellfire Breath make them all going after him imediately :-/
    Hellfire Breath can't reach the adds as they spawn on the other side of the dragon. Spreading Burn to Death dot can though, and if the weak HoX worry about that and can't take a few spankings he should not use Burn to Death as Masters Call is being cast. However someone does NEED to take the adds off MT group, and BtD dot can help with that, along with the splash from Demo spells and Ice Strike. If people focus the adds they are halfway dead when they arrive at dps group and once the melees touch them they're dead. If you are ranged and not porting, there is one job for you, pull adds and kill them. This includes Ranger, Pom and Tos obviously.

    DPS is key to this fight, all four tanks on boss need high agro to avoid Masters Call spawn on DPS group. Find the limits, and if the limit is too low, replace the worst tank or give him education how to improve. You should need no more than 3-4 ports if everything goes well.

    If you die, a) blame healers and b) beef up (if a doesn't help).
    Last edited by Shax84; 17th August 2016 at 05:57.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shax84 View Post
    DPS is key to this fight, all four tanks on boss need high agro to avoid Masters Call spawn on DPS group. Find the limits, and if the limit is too low, replace the worst tank or give him education how to improve. You should need no more than 3-4 ports if everything goes well.
    3-4 ports is a dps level only top-notch pve guilds can reach. My group takes 5 to 6 banes to reach the last 10%, and that's while only killing the first 2 add waves and ignoring teleports afterward to focus on him. Granted we don't go instant full nuke to avoid aggro problems, but still.
    I guess it becomes easier once your raid is fully T5-T6 geared.

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