[Video] Temple of Erlik 6 man

[Rathothis]

The problem with T3.5 is not if it was nerfed but rather how it was nerfed, and that is a big difference that most of the people simply refuse to understand.
It could have been perfectly casual friendly yet fun and interesting keeping all the mechanics but making them forgiving.

What you fail to consider is the purpose of this nerf. T3.5 was not nerfed to cater to casual raid groups or OPRs. It was nerfed to be accessible for unorganised PUGs that come together using FC's future raid finder. I.e., a bunch of people
* who have never played together in this setup,
* some of whom don't have any experience with the encounters,
* some of whom don't even use voice communication, and
* many of whom only have very limited resistance to wipes. (Because instead of wiping, they will try another raid finder PUG and hope for a larger number of vets to carry them.)

I am pretty sure that this is the reason why they butchered mechanics, instead of simply making mistakes less punishing. Not saying this is good or bad, or whether it could have been done better (probably yes). But I think it explains a lot.

[Anzu]

And with the help of Rathothis, we're back on topic. There'll be no more warnings.

[Greyloins]

What you fail to consider is the purpose of this nerf. T3.5 was not nerfed to cater to casual raid groups or OPRs. It was nerfed to be accessible for unorganised PUGs that come together using FC's future raid finder. I.e., a bunch of people
* who have never played together in this setup,
* some of whom don't have any experience with the encounters,
* some of whom don't even use voice communication, and
* many of whom only have very limited resistance to wipes. (Because instead of wiping, they will try another raid finder PUG and hope for a larger number of vets to carry them.)

I am pretty sure that this is the reason why they butchered mechanics, instead of simply making mistakes less punishing. Not saying this is good or bad, or whether it could have been done better (probably yes). But I think it explains a lot.

Thing is, the raid finder is almost universally here seen as a pointless waste of effort that can only result in failure, that is shoehorned into aoc because they are making it in tsw which runs on the same engine. The problem in aoc isn't finding a raid, it's finding people to fill a raid. I can't say whether removing so many mechanics from the affected raids were a good idea or a bad one for the longevity of the game as opposed to keeping mechanics but nerfing them (like, Thoth adds still cast their spells but much slower, there are still horns on Archfiend but they matter less), but I think many will be tired of these raids in a month or two now that they're mostly tank&spank, the same way content in games like wow gets ignored once you have the gear because it's brain-numbingly boring. Then again, people still do WB after all this time...

[Texan615]

Patch 4.7 went live on 10/21, 3 weeks ago.

I bet way more people have stepped into T3.5 in the last 3 weeks than in the last year.

Whether or not you agree with the nerfs, your opinion is subjective, but you can't argue that many more people are doing the content that had never bothered even trying until just recently.

Thus, the changes should be considered a positive.

[Shax84]

You could be right about that, Texan615, but kinda hard to measure if you are right or not. I've been online most evenings (EU time) on Crom, and apart from the five T3.5 raids I have done, I have seen a few more on global. I know guilds have been doing T3.5 pre-nerf for the weapons, and also the change of scenery. But thats not the point. Most definitely are you correct that more people are doing the raid now per week than before the nerf per week. This will likely continue too, due to the bosses having loads of loot, also the Bat drop Dragon Tears now after the past years adjustments to loot tables. Should six people, or even half a raid be able to kill a boss that drop dragon tears? In it's current state it is actually very hard to produce a wipe on the bosses in there. Only if some nitwit fails to take Veil and trigger enrage of melee phase Zaal. This raid is now much easier than a fair few fights of lower tiers, and has a lot better loot. Actually, some of the best weapons for certain applications. While community cry about DT and solotanking, they manage to produce yet another encounter where DT can parse close to 3k dps while solotanking the main boss (Archfiend).

[Greyloins]

Patch 4.7 went live on 10/21, 3 weeks ago.

I bet way more people have stepped into T3.5 in the last 3 weeks than in the last year.

Whether or not you agree with the nerfs, your opinion is subjective, but you can't argue that many more people are doing the content that had never bothered even trying until just recently.

Thus, the changes should be considered a positive.

How many people are doing a piece of content right after the patch doesn't say anything about how good the change was. If every boss in T3.5 could've been soloed instead of 6manned even more people would've done it but it wouldn't have been a better change. Similarly flame/vortex/palace are by far the most popular dungeons though they are in no way the best. If mechanics were kept but nerfed instead of completely removed, a lot more people would still have done t3.5 since patch, and maybe they wouldn't tire of the raids as quickly then. Maybe it would give new people a taste of the difficulty in the game and prepare them towards doing T5 and T6.

[Rathothis]

Thing is, the raid finder is almost universally here seen as a pointless waste of effort that can only result in failure, that is shoehorned into aoc because they are making it in tsw which runs on the same engine. The problem in aoc isn't finding a raid, it's finding people to fill a raid. I can't say whether removing so many mechanics from the affected raids were a good idea or a bad one for the longevity of the game as opposed to keeping mechanics but nerfing them (like, Thoth adds still cast their spells but much slower, there are still horns on Archfiend but they matter less), but I think many will be tired of these raids in a month or two now that they're mostly tank&spank, the same way content in games like wow gets ignored once you have the gear because it's brain-numbingly boring. Then again, people still do WB after all this time...

Well, the vicious cycle you describe is not so much driven by lower tier nerfs. Rather, this is what happens in any MMO if development mainly focuses on vertical progression through raids. The lower tier nerfs are just the consequence of a focus on adding new tiers on top.

Personally, I'm not that fond of the raid finder either. But without massive nerfs, strictly PUG-only casuals would be limited to T1+2 forever. Of course in the ideal world, there would have been different new content for them - I'm thinking of the crafting revamp. But we all know what happened to that.

[Texan615]

FFS, T3.5 came out over 4 years ago. Every MMO around, any raid tier that's 4 years old is unbelievably obsolete and very often soloable due to level and gear progression.

Just be glad AoC still keeps raids somewhat up to par due to very little power creep in tier raiding gear and lack of a level increase for the last 7+ years.

[Korando-AoC]

How many people are doing a piece of content right after the patch doesn't say anything about how good the change was. If every boss in T3.5 could've been soloed instead of 6manned even more people would've done it but it wouldn't have been a better change. Similarly flame/vortex/palace are by far the most popular dungeons though they are in no way the best. If mechanics were kept but nerfed instead of completely removed, a lot more people would still have done t3.5 since patch, and maybe they wouldn't tire of the raids as quickly then. Maybe it would give new people a taste of the difficulty in the game and prepare them towards doing T5 and T6.

Number of people playing new content 3 weeks after patch doesn't mean anything, you are right.. but this content was not in the patch, it was there for 4 years.

And asking players to prepare for T6 in T3.5 is illogic.
T4 and T5 are in between, and realistically raiding higher tiers does not need rocket science, mostly dedication, with all that it means.
You prepare for a master degree or a job, not for a videogame.

I could understand if you would QQ about T6 beeing too easy.
That is the higher raid tier, MUST be tailored on hardcore raiders and loot dropping there must be well deserved (hopefully no MC/Entity like shortcuts for T6 any time soon), but casual players need content they can play, because they provide money that keeps game alive too.
And as higher raid tier is for hardcore, 4 years old content MUST be for casual players.

[Korando-AoC]

FFS, T3.5 came out over 4 years ago. Every MMO around, any raid tier that's 4 years old is unbelievably obsolete and very often soloable due to level and gear progression.

Just be glad AoC still keeps raids somewhat up to par due to very little power creep in tier raiding gear and lack of a level increase for the last 7+ years.

Quote all.