The class pyramid

[Rathothis]

About ToS, it could definetely use a "get out of a sh*t" spell imo.
The speedbuff idea (something like demo hands of the underworld, eventually with 2 min cooldown and no snare) would really improve the class and would solve the situational class weakness in bad minigames.
But apart this, I don't really think ToS is weak.
The few times I tried it looked pretty fun and and with some very strong points (CCs, sustained AoE).
It's not a class for beginners, but with just a speedbuff it would get to the top of the food chain imo (look fo example what Ensifer already does).

It's true that some players perform very well on ToS. But when you take a closer look, those are the players who are pretty much the top of the pvp foodchain - we know what Ensifer does on barb, and for what I've heard he also was pretty much the best HoX on the EU servers. We also know what Lurvi does on BS. Then there's a handful of other ToSes who do well, but almost all of them are very good players on other toons as well.

By contrast, you see players from top guilds, who are experienced in PvP and have all the gear and AA, underperform significantly on ToS.

One further point: Due to the kind of damage ToS does (sustained AoE with very slow to build burst, unless you go for boring LS spec), the class is very gear-dependent to get kills, because of the way kills are calculated in this game. And sadly, kills are the only stat that is registered at the end of a game.

[Willd]

You get a point, but OP get a point too, when he speak around noobies/starters. Do you think all class are equal under noobies hands ? Why they jump on Tanks, rangers... but no ToS, HoX ?
You can't judge overall class balance around vets who plays the game for years, or since the beginning. There's also newbies and we have to think about thems when we think about the game.
Ofc when you have all the field awareness, already a good experience of other class skills (while fighting them), class-speakers in your guilds giving good advices and easy-access to good gear/pvp group events, it affects your perception of the game.

In the other hand, pvp newbies have nothing of that. They're not Phobica, Svartie... but hey plays the game too, and they're the future of the game. So Funcom is right about balancing things cause when you're starter ToS or HoX and you get wrecked in few seconds due to gear gap + aa gap + skill gap + class difference you're more entitled to drop the game and going for one of thoses MoBas that have better approach of pvp (skill curve better for the starter) + better balance.

And yeah, i'm still surprised of people saying class balance is okay. I've seen it multiple times on forums, 6 months ago, 1 year ago, 2 year ago... even at release some players said there was no issue with class balance while toses are farming openworld and minis, barbs doing oneshots, demo doing 15 seconds roots with insane damage and so on :P

- Rangers being stupid op (since revamp and still broken today) ? Np, class balance is fine.
- Age of soldiers (lasted over 18 months) ? Np, class balance is fine.
- Sins completely broken (after their revamp) ? Np class balance is fine.

I'm little used of people saying it's fine, when last 6-8 months on Test Live we had tons of threads, 18-pages discussions about class balances. I have the feeling that most people are afraid of changes and don't want to experiment metagame shift even a bit (and assuming that class balances stay at this poor attempt we have at the moment, there's no chances we will see a total shift)

I have too agree with u on the noob friendly part☺
If noob start with : guard, ranger or a pom as healer
They will have a nice start☺
As for my sake: i started as a dt in 2008 and had to learn the game the hard way☺ the struggle too compete was what i enjoyed☺. Always having to reach out for support in open world etc☺. Why grp up if u can take on anny challange urself☺
So why sould all new people have the chance to start out the easy way☺
Just saying☺

[Rathothis]

I'm little used of people saying it's fine, when last 6-8 months on Test Live we had tons of threads, 18-pages discussions about class balances. I have the feeling that most people are afraid of changes and don't want to experiment metagame shift even a bit (and assuming that class balances stay at this poor attempt we have at the moment, there's no chances we will see a total shift)

Since this is a MMORPG, class balance can never be perfect. But in the ideal case, easy-to-start classes should benefit less from player skill than classes which are more difficult in the beginning. Which explains why one of the classes you seem to hate with a vengeance (DT) actually is not so badly balanced. Compare that to classes like PoM, Ranger or Conq, which are easy to start out with and have virtually no "ceiling" in the hands of a good player.

The other point about balance not being perfect is that changes do not need to lead to perfect equilibrium. If one class becomes the new FOTM, so be it - in particular if it is HoX, since HoX just deserves awesomeness. Also this means that we don't need "intelligent" nerfs to the classes mentioned above - they have been "unintelligently" OP for some time, it's time their players get whacked on the head a little. Once we realise this, it becomes easier to disregard the discussions you mention, which mainly consist of players of these classes trying to argue that any proposed nerf is "not intelligent".

[Bibik]

Yeah, ofc, you're right. Class Balance is a tricky work, not a science. You have to be careful when doing things and unmeasured boost can leave the game with worst result than before. In the other hand, it seems developpers (Pyzerius) is really competent at his job and doing this very carefully (even a bit too much imho :P) while having in his focus players feedbacks (same, a bit too much from my taste, as players feedbacks are often based on perceptions, and are often inconsistents).

So i don't fear seeing things like ranger or conq revamp again. HoX tweaks are welcomed and correctly done. To illustrate, there's a very good rework of Phoenix mantle : the 1st version was OP but Pyzerius worked again on it and suggested a 2nd version far better balanced but still an improvement for the HoX in the survival departement.

About DeeTee, i'm harsh again them cause I don't want that other classes OPness (like thoses you mention, even tho they are already being hitted by nerfhammer on TL) overshine the current (and quite old ) situation of the class. NEVER FORGET o/

[Rathothis]

About DeeTee, i'm harsh again them cause I don't want that other classes OPness (like thoses you mention, even tho they are already being hitted by nerfhammer on TL) overshine the current (and quite old ) situation of the class. NEVER FORGET o/

Honestly I think that most of the nerf cries against DT come from a PvE rather than a PvP perspective.

And well, I don't really see a Conq nerf on TL given that BFC will be restored to its previous version, and that silly Break Through perk is untouched. Same for rangers. Only PoMs get a bit of a nerf on LtP - I wouldn't call the changes to HoM a nerf, since it is simply trading a -20% damage modifier for -2 secs duration. Still, this changes nothing about the fact that PoM is - and will remain - the strongest healer class.

[Bibik]

Mmh that's quite true, some nerfs are really tiny or pushed back to their OP version, i'm the first being sad about this... Still better than nothing, though.
About DT, i'm still surprised that it disappeared from pvp players issue. 1 year ago (not so long time...) everyone complained about them... even more than rangers. So maybe I missed something during that time, but still when i watch tanks PoV minis it's still the same "running around, killing things and not being punished for mistakes and overextend" gameplay. So i'm not sure things have changed a lot after the pvp gear fix.

I should maybe re-playing some minis to see by myself, but i'm too lazy doing that.

[Belawen]

About DT, i'm still surprised that it disappeared from pvp players issue. 1 year ago (not so long time...) everyone complained about them... even more than rangers. So maybe I missed something during that time, but still when i watch tanks PoV minis it's still the same "running around, killing things and not being punished for mistakes and overextend" gameplay. So i'm not sure things have changed a lot after the pvp gear fix.

I think that aoc players have simply grown to accept that soldiers can do whatever they please. But in that sense, while DT's surely can take punishment like anybody else and burst you down in a blink of an eye, even "by accident", they lack some of the abilities conqs and guards have to lock and hunt you down. Speedbuff, kb's, cc resists abilities, AoE attacks that stagger you no matter what way you're facing etc. That makes their off the charts dps/survivability ratio easier to accept. To sum it off, it's common knowledge, and something coincidentally tanks like to point out: anyone who goes and fights a soldier is a complete and utter idiot and doesn't know a tit about pvp.

[slackjoint]

Well you can still take on most soldiers if you know your class

[Kalgon]

DT is such an easy class to avoid in PvP. I think that is why there isn't as much QQ about them from PvP.

They dish out great damage, but are also really easy to control. Conqs and Guards are far more OP in PvP to me.

This is coming from me playing my Barb 99% of the time.

[razorkid10]

Mmh that's quite true, some nerfs are really tiny or pushed back to their OP version, i'm the first being sad about this... Still better than nothing, though.
About DT, i'm still surprised that it disappeared from pvp players issue. 1 year ago (not so long time...) everyone complained about them... even more than rangers. So maybe I missed something during that time, but still when i watch tanks PoV minis it's still the same "running around, killing things and not being punished for mistakes and overextend" gameplay. So i'm not sure things have changed a lot after the pvp gear fix.

I should maybe re-playing some minis to see by myself, but i'm too lazy doing that.

I honelsty don't see any reason why anyone would complain about dt (PVP)
My honest opinion and a fact is that dt is - slow, low range, stun / fear as cc ( dont mention snare cus its crap imo, never work)
dmg is random, sometimes u can smash in frenzy for 10 hits without any dmg, and sometimes hit 1 time and take 30% from hp.. really nice work funcom grats, lottery.

and dt dies like cloth armor once u drain his mana, honestly ranger or sin for example just dominates dt's

i just want dt to get revamp since its **** without vom and ridicilously op in PVE with vom.