Why MMO combat sucks!

[FirepowahQQ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQPVoVaPOQU

Good video imo

[barbaricwildcat2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQPVoVaPOQU

Good video imo

thx for sharing!

[Kellaxe]

That is a good video.

Thanks for sharing.

I think it does bear fruit on why I like AoC so much. It is a system that takes the restrictions MMO's can do for combat, but allows for some user feedback other than just tab targeting.

[Kurt2013]

It also illustrates well why certain things in AoC happen with latency and more players around.
It also reminds me, that the new engine obviously uses a different "prediction" system than the old...which had less teleporting (e.g. different lag behaviour), less rubberbanding, less freezes...but more players around (white sands 6 vs 6 ppl combat + a dozen questers in the same zone...sure you had lag and even freezes back then, but not with such random results or weird rubberbanding as now).
They kind of moves a step towards the fps prediction model, while adding more instant abilities and more latency through server moves...if you listen to the video, you'll know why this can't work out, even with good network code and good servers.

[kalston]

Good video.

And Kurt2013 most of those problems come from sprint revamp (there wasn't that much rubberbanding before) + the new latency doesn't help.

And yes there are some limitations that FC will never overcome. I've explained that before already. A netcode is always a tradeoff.

AoC could run better but it simply can't be perfect.

[Kurt2013]

Not most. The rubberbanding came with a patch after the engine update. Officially a patch against a falling exploit. Remember the deadly water in Tesso?

And with every tradeoff you can set what you consider "average" and select the boundaries. If you know your mathematical models (or netcode) goes nuts in the results with certain inputs, you dampen or limit these inputs...and try to make things not worse.

Meaning, you have to adapt your calculations and combat system to an average of 150-200 ms now, instead of using the old code and system optimized for 50ms. It is not a "solution", i know (that would be reopening localized servers throughout the world again). And it is not a good one, because it means less molding or instant things and less fluent movement probably (though a lot can be overcome by tweaks, making it at least appear to be fluent...e.g. giving now instant things a casttime of 0.2s and making it castable while moving, will show no difference to the human playing it...but 0.2s are a lot of time to do calculations in, if you're a computer).

But the alternative is more unpredictable things happening both in pvp (cheat accusations, more options to hide you're cheating, less tactics and strategy, more luck, less skill) or pve (waking up dead in a mob cloud, when you headed in the opposite direction, client freezes, wipes).

I am seriously hoping the GD meant something like this when he talked about optimizing the netcode, but on the other hand i doubt it. Even the best netcode can't erase the problems that come, if you move a combat system designed for localized servers to one server for the whole world. It comes down to the question "is it still playable for me or not?".

[blondie63]

I DO NOT like the dancing combat you fight with your weapons and not your feet
it says to not double click the arrow keys and I don't and I still dance away from the mobs, have even danced my way off a cliff and a bridge and pulled mobs that I didn't want ...
and another thing when you buy points in marketplace don't go in a look and see why the points are taking so long they will charge you
I have 8 transactions on hold in my checking acct. totaling $300.00 I'm still waiting for the hold to come off..... and I got no points I tried to buy 2 on different days. both failed so looked and was charged for every look. I wasn't told that if you try to buy more than 1 transaction at a time it would fail.

[Khaletohep]

The video highlights some very valid points, I think. Lag and weird speed related issues currently dominate PvP combat. Tactics resolve a lot around moving in a way the other player cannot really react to due to latency issues (circlestrafing, bunnyhopping and so on).

One of the problems, I think, is the mix of action and tactic/brainy activity in most MMORPGs. That leads to a lot of problems you can see in everyday play.

I'll try to explain my thoughts with a look at games in general - bare with me for a moment or two.

***rant incoming***

Old school, turn based strategy games like Civilization and Master of Orion II are pretty complex. They need to be slow (turn based) to allow people to deal with the complexity. The game is about being smart, not about having quick reflexes.
Old school RPGs belonged to this kind. There rarely ran in real time, or the real was so slow that it didn't matter much.

Old school, action based games like Doom, Mario Brothers or Wing Commander are relatively simpel and don't require that much deep thinking, but quick reflexes, quick decision making and so on.

Two completely different approaches. There're even different sections of our brain responsible for both, as far as I understand those matters. Some players like the first kind better, others the second kind. Or maybe people liked them in different situations - to relax after a long day of work, shooting up some tentacled aliens is a good thing, but if you really want to strain your thinking muscles, you just need to adjust the food production and infrastructure building of all 22 cities in your little empire.


With time, these genres got more and more mixed. Companies wanted to grab both kind of players. The real time strategy game got introduced, e. g. Dune II. RPGs became more and more action oriented, e. g. Ultima Underworld.

That was perceived as a good thing - and I think it still is, the mixture can be quite fun. But it came at a price. The number of really nerdy, complex, slow games diminished. If you - for example - only have one hand and the reflexes of an ocean tanker, you cannot really enjoy mainstream RPGs like Skyrim.
And the pure action games required more and more thinking, long time investment and so on. Today, even mainstream shooters incorporate RPG elements - those used to be complete opposites.

MMORPGs like WoW, AoC and so on mix the traditions of slow, turn based RPGs and pure action games. Everything is in real time, even PvE fights requires pretty good reflexes, precision of movement and so on. But they also require long time investment, number crunching and so on. The players need a.) patience and sheer brain power and b.) the reflexes of a 14 year old on two bottles of coke. That is a major problem in PvE progression, I think, as some people just are too impatient to stay focussed during long raids (the "squirrels"), while others (the "mammoths") are patient enough, but lack the talent for quick decision making, reflexes and so on that are often described as "skill".

And it also makes the combat, especially PvP combat so strange. In an ego shooter, you get a weapon and don't have to think all a lot about what to do with it - point, click, kill, brain is happy. In an MMO (at least AoC), you get enough buttons to make a flight simulator proud - uhm, which is for killing...?
The success in combat then relies on both understanding what skill to use when and having the reflexes to actually execute that.
That is, by itself, not a bad thing, but limits the number of players appealed by the game, I suppose. But the implementation in MMOs is weird then. Autotargetting on the one hand more or less eliminates the dexterity part, but the speed of combat requires ultra quick reflexes (and low lag).
You still get a huuuuuge number of skills, each of them with lots of counter abilities available. You need to watch your buffs and debuffs as well as your enemies' - and so on and so on.
Ultima Underworld, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic and Skyrim, for example, went the other way round: They have relatively few abilities, but require actual targetting.
That is, in my opinion, much easier to balance and not as weird a mix.

So...

What if MMORPGs were turn based - or ran rather slow like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights or other quasi-turn based games? I think you'd loose a lot of PvP players, but gain in other departments. Lag, client and server power wouldn't be much of an issue.

What if MMORPGs incorporated more "skill", but had less abilities? That would help a lot in the PvP area, and you could compete with shooters (which slowly move to the RPG area anyhow). The demand on connection, client and server power are higher (as in "as they are now").

The weird mix we currently have, though, is in my opinion nothing we should again see in the next years.

[Pogec]

What if MMORPGs were turn based - or ran rather slow like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights or other quasi-turn based games? I think you'd loose a lot of PvP players, but gain in other departments. Lag, client and server power wouldn't be much of an issue.

What if MMORPGs incorporated more "skill", but had less abilities? That would help a lot in the PvP area, and you could compete with shooters (which slowly move to the RPG area anyhow). The demand on connection, client and server power are higher (as in "as they are now").

The weird mix we currently have, though, is in my opinion nothing we should again see in the next years.

No idea how would you make a turn based MMORPG. Imagine a 6-man dungeon where you would have to wait 2-3 mins before its your turn then play for 30 secs and wait 2-3 or even more again, rather not to mention any a bit larger scale like 12-man. Also BG 2 or NWN are pretty darn fast games unless you are pausing all the time and you cant do that in a multiplayer game.

A lot of new MMO follows the way of "less or limited abilities" you mentioned above(GW 2, TSW, TESO) and pvp there just sucks, its repetive and boring, thats why I always came back to AoC. Also the problem with having more buttons than on a flight simulator is usually caused by players themself when they spec a bambilion of different and usually useless abilities and then they dont know what to use 1st.

[Slith]

A lot of new MMO follows the way of "less or limited abilities" you mentioned above(GW 2, TSW, TESO) and pvp there just sucks, its repetive and boring, thats why I always came back to AoC. Also the problem with having more buttons than on a flight simulator is usually caused by players themself when they spec a bambilion of different and usually useless abilities and then they dont know what to use 1st.

Same goes with Wildstar: they had something good going with telegraphs (wicked idea, google it!), but managed to screw it up with having same few buttons you just spam until opponent is dead.