Tos vs Pom

[Osireis]

Anyone again from PvE server.

lol i play on all three servers

[Kurt2013]

Oh my god dude, just come down okay? At the beginning it's funny to read your silly posts but it's getting more and more annoying now. Seriously, the reason why you don't shine pvp wise is not because of the class, it's the same reason why most players even suck on ranger. It's their playstyle, it's your playstyle. You shine with your pom in duels, yes for sure you do! Because of the crazy burst a pom has, the bubble and the amount of cc you can even waste.

If your think for your team, for the next member of your team just one second then you will understand what an important role you play for win or lose of the battle. I noticed you several times in mini-games, admittedly some time ago, and what I saw was nothing more than embarrassing. You just stand back in save range and spam your smite or condemnation to get the lucky frag or even climb up a rock like a monkey and feel like a pro spamming around your **** from up there.

Look at a real pom, like Brungild (the black rose pom, I think most know him, don't know if I spell his name right now) who can make the difference between a win or a lose. Why? Because he is doing some steps forward to his team and rescues with cc, yeah even uses his heals for his team.

You fail on your pom not because of the class, it's just because of your silly playstyle! Period!

Leaving the personal attacks aside, there are actually interesting points here.

First, it is obvious that PoM seems to have several valid builds. If you compare PoM and ToS here, they attempted to buff ranged ToS with the revamp, but overall you rarely see them attacking from range. Most ToS go for storm field and selfress and symbol, independant of pvp or pve. I had a complete Setfree ToS once (lightning strike and sparks), but went to the stormfield build later. PoM is different here probably. Just from memory you can come up with several working builds for pve and even for pvp it seems to matter more, if you have certain AAs or not. Would be interesting to see more builds posted here, like Gevlya did. Arta is not the only pom attacking at range...and they are not better or worse than the repulse poms...for some classes even more dangerous. Might be easier to get healed by the other type...but with current lagtency, even this is down to luck in a pug.

Second, you proved my point about support. Most PoMs, especially those you mention, play in premade core groups (for various good synergy reasons, but this applies to the other healers too). For example, my PoM plays more meleelike too (without condemnation and i have the AA for repulse). The same approach might not be valid for other builds and PLAYER preferences. (and judging a player skill from minis and guild rivalries is bound to be unfair and invalid anyway...). In this case, the moving along and "rescuing" takes certain preferences, like gear and AA as well as the support, to even be doable. Try that as lone pom with bad connection for example and you will see your own team mates running away from heals and ignoring you. So, i can understand that certain players adapt their gamestyle to maybe a "suboptimum", but one that works for them in certain situations. Those accused might play completely different in a premade situation (i know i do).

Another difference worth to mention between tos and pom (if not already done), is not the amount of ccs, but the kind.

The ccs the tos has for free are a stun and an aoe root. They can upgrade the stun and get another stun, silence (useless as cc, only "combobreaker") with points.

The PoM gets repulse (knockback, upgradeable to instant with AA), fear (ranged), stun, aoe slow and maybe one more through avatar (i am not counting the condemnation fear for demons) for free.

So, should be obvious with all the cc resistances (stun can be reduced via AAs, fear and stun and root broken) that a pom has more "emergency" tools than a tos...so he might be a bit less dependand on the support from others to shine as a tos.

[Arta]

(and judging a player skill from minis and guild rivalries is bound to be unfair and invalid anyway...). In this case, the moving along and "rescuing" takes certain preferences, like gear and AA as well as the support, to even be doable. Try that as lone pom with bad connection for example and you will see your own team mates running away from heals and ignoring you. So, i can understand that certain players adapt their gamestyle to maybe a "suboptimum", but one that works for them in certain situations. Those accused might play completely different in a premade situation (i know i do)

Yes! Unfair compare that when a pom goto mini with guildmates or ganking in world game with that situation anyone join to mini alone, from a minor guild. It did write how must play pom with allies, but the mini game separate you from friends and take in one group with enemy. The enemy will not say thanks if you support good, thats run away, lets you alone, and laught on you when see your die.

But unfair that too, they start post flood ganking, because i have different opinion in many things as the mainstream. Their main argue; "we are right, because we are many". Their argue totaly miss the consturtuctive discussion, tend at only keep the territory against the intruder. This forum is only their playground, and don't want share. Provocate me, and keep under pressure for make a fail, when can call the kindergarten teacher, "the new child play badly... please send it to corner"

[beacor11]

Yepp, so poor boy. I pity you so much! What are you even talking about? I mentioned one pom here who's way to play I admire referring to pug-minis, nothing else! I never encountered Brungild (sorry again if I spell wrong) in any (!) premade match or ally-fight, only in pug-matches. And yeah, he even dares to play supportive in pug-minis. But anyway, all this is OT...

[Kurt2013]

I wouldn't consider some clarifications under which situation and which conditions the different classes have advantages and disadvantages offtopic.

And of course, per definition there are no premades anymore, if you only consider tournament or the old system as such. Still there are regular groups playing together, some even on same voicecom and from similar or allied guilds. That is what i call a "core premade" in pugs. And this is NOT judging it as bad or unfair...it depends with those a lot on the premade on the situation in pug. But that is just how it is done...surely you can't be so naive in thinking, there does exist something as pure pug with funcoms balancing algorithm and player behaviour? And for mini outcome it matters a LOT, if both sides have such a core group, if they are splitted to the teams or only in one team or absent. Especially on Crom you can see what a large "premade" signed group can do to seemingly "pug" minigames. This effect is not so big on Fury, since you have more fractions and a larger 80s minis player pool, but also there.

I have seen the PoM you mentioned and others i would consider "supportive" or good...but they could not do what they do, if they had not support in one way or another (sometimes it is enough to have another good pug player around who cares, sometimes it is just friends in same or other team and sometimes such a core premade is there). And you can deduce to voicecom, if as soon as the PoM is attacked, some player cancels current action and comes to aid (repeatedly). Again, this is not judging playing this way as bad...it is just what is done and happens with according results.

@Arta: Yes, that's why i referred to posted builds. Some of them gave some constructive feedback at the first pages, but then derailed. Would be nice to see the pvp oriented more or less "standard" builds posted from the three healer classes (i know there are some on the according forums, but here we could compare immediately). I guess this would show a lot about playstyle options of the classes alone (in pvp).

Also the power (especially for poms) changes significantly while levelling and at 80. But to judge the class as a whole you have to look at this aspect too (since it is the factor which decides, if players get hooked or not or believe the statement that "PoM is OP"). If they can not experience it even with advice, then something is off.

[Arta]

@Arta: Yes, that's why i referred to posted builds. Some of them gave some constructive feedback at the first pages, but then derailed.

Only Suctum posted any detailed explanation on first pages, i read and noticed that it getting experience in different environment than me. I wanted avoid the indulge in personalities, when i wrote an different opinion, didnt type his name. But it attacked me directly in the answer. It balme me with trolling for i had different opinion. I did answer at that moderated style. After came Bendowill and thats gang at blood smell. They didnt say any detailed or constructive, they came only for flame and trolling.

[kalston]

[...]

I'm sorry but you're writing really long posts and I fail to see the point(s).

There is virtually no one disagreeing that pom is one of the strongest pvp classes, no matter the situation. They shine as much in premades as they do in random pvp - because they have good survivability and CCs and dps. They might not top kills all that much in premades because they'll get some focus and the dpsers won't be as bad as in pugs. But even then they'll have such a huge impact on the game with the heals and CCs it's not even funny.

And sorry but they are not nearly as squishy as toses (you said that before but that's just not true) even when they get focused in premades they are not as easy to take down as you make it sound. Don't forget to take into account CCs when talking about survivability. Instant repulse is not just a control tool, it's also a lifesaver like burst of aggression for conqs. Heck, it's even faster than boa since it is TRULY instant.

[Chaman-bourru]

I've rarely seen anyone as vindictive as you Arta. No one attacked you at first though they have a completely diffrent point of view. They didn't troll either. You're the one that 'attacked' them... Just chill. Relax. You're a RPer communication should be your field.

And sorry but they are not nearly as squishy as toses (you said that before but that's just not true) even when they get focused in premades they are not as easy to take down as you make it sound. Don't forget to take into account CCs when talking about survivability. Instant repulse is not just a control tool, it's also a lifesaver like burst of aggression for conqs. Heck, it's even faster than boa since it is TRULY instant.

Yes completely. ToS only have quick sand as AoE CC to get out of trouble, it has a cast and lots of class a likely to dodge it. Sins with lucky LO procs or AoD / LOD, barbs with all their anti-cc. Even mages with purge will get out of it. Not to mention Carny conqs with 40% resist too root and guards that dodge one out of two CC ^^
As for PoM i would add the AoE snare as a great survibility tool, like Suctum said, great tool to break rush. Really gives an edge. And if i'm not mistaking, the CC have relatively low CDs.

[Ruhenous]

PoM is by far one of the strongest classes in PvP. They have good burst damage, good survivability via CC's and bubbles, and amazing ability to support their team. PoM is literally one of two classes without a weakness. Conq is the other class, obviously.

[Ieronon]

And if i'm not mistaking, the CC have relatively low CDs.

Repulse and Fear have low cd (well, Fear resets on crits with LtP anyway, Repulse is 30s). Snare and both stuns cooldowns are quite long (over a minute for stuns, don't remember exactly for snare but it's around the minute).