Which soldier takes the most skill to tank effectively?

[Evitq]

It entirely depends what you're tanking..

[aegeas]

It's too late and I'm too tired to make a valid point, but would just like to pose a different way of thinking of this question.

Which soldier has most variation in tanking builds/play style. Then presumably this would take more skill to be useful at each one.

I'll just present some 'valid' styles meaning I see people use them effectively in certain situations.

[DT]
Physical Turtle Dread
Tali/DPS Dread
Bloodshed Shield
Bloodshed Tali
Magic Turtle Dread
Magic Tali Dread.

[Conq]
Brute Physical
Brute Magical
Carnage Physical 'Hate' (theoretically possible in a universe without stop signs)
Carnage Magical

[Guard]
Physical Turtle
Magic Turtle
Physical Hate (giving up Jug/Strike and Guard and swapping improved def stance for sustained rage for more hate)
Magic Hate (^as above)
Counter Weight Tanking (swapping out stall for S&B counter weight)

Not really sure what my point is but I didn't promise one.

Also the other way of looking at it, what class shows up the experts from the noobs more.

E.G. competing against your own class for agro and dps.

Someone once suggested that would be the conq, but he is a biased stop sign ignorer who can't even learn an ibis recipe.

[Robbybobby]

I think Conq is the hardest, then DT, then guard. I've played all three, and maybe my ranking is just based on the classes I've played the most. But here is my reasoning:

Weapon swapping adds an entirely new element to Conq skill that isn't present in the guard or DT. It legit takes practice to get used to the timing of the swap to ensure that you don't have lag time between combos. No other class relies on weapon swapping to be as effective a tank as possible. On top of that, conqs have a whole range of activated abilities that need to be used at the proper time to maximize their effectiveness. Some of these abilities are altered by the technique and discipline you are running, which can sometimes depend on the group and the circumstances, so you have to keep straight which buff does what. And erock nailed it when he said proper timing of bubbles is almost as important as anything else in terms of maximizing survivability. There is a lot of subtlety to the class that is hard to appreciate until youve really sunk time in the class.

I was debating between DT and guard for a bit but ultimately think DT is a little more complex. Des/gen builds are incredibly simple to play with the proper gear, and are clearly the builds of choice in t2 and k6s. Outside of hitting bloodshed every 12 seconds, there is nothing else you have to do other than use combos and maybe use blood pact. These builds make me think the DT is easier than the guard. But if you need to roll a depravity spec an make it work in a good group and raid force, I think it is more complicated. Seal of chaos has a cast time (even though short) and a much longer cool down than the other aoe taunts, making it harder to use more effectively. Mana management in depravity builds also adds a degree of complexity and judgement. You need to be able to turn off soul barrier or pact while not missing combos to keep your aggro up. You need to use mystical bane intelligently to keep a steady mana flow. You need to know when and how to use the dread effectively as an off tank, and you often need to be ready to kill it because of raid mechanics. Overall I think there is a lot of thought going on to be an effective depravoty DT that kind of gets lost because of how "easy" it is to play des/gen in easier instances.

That leaves guard as the easiest. Guard is the least gear dependent, which makes it an easy class to break in to. Playing a guard to its full potential isn't exactly easy, but I do believe it is the easiest of the soldier classes. There is no weapon swapping or mana management. It has the best aoe taunt by far. It does not require as many combos as the other classes in a typical rotation. It is easy to drop aggro without fear of dying because of high mitigation. It does have a ton of activated abilities which are fun to manage, but that is no more complex than Conq. If you can read a guide and learn a combo rotation and when to use your abilities to maximize hate, there ceases to be much judgment in terms of playing the class, at least in my opinion.

Of course I have played Conq by far the most, so maybe my opinion is skewed

[KullOfValusia]

I think Conq is the hardest, then DT, then guard. I've played all three, and maybe my ranking is just based on the classes I've played the most. But here is my reasoning:

Weapon swapping adds an entirely new element to Conq skill that isn't present in the guard or DT. It legit takes practice to get used to the timing of the swap to ensure that you don't have lag time between combos. No other class relies on weapon swapping to be as effective a tank as possible. On top of that, conqs have a whole range of activated abilities that need to be used at the proper time to maximize their effectiveness. Some of these abilities are altered by the technique and discipline you are running, which can sometimes depend on the group and the circumstances, so you have to keep straight which buff does what. And erock nailed it when he said proper timing of bubbles is almost as important as anything else in terms of maximizing survivability. There is a lot of subtlety to the class that is hard to appreciate until youve really sunk time in the class.

I was debating between DT and guard for a bit but ultimately think DT is a little more complex. Des/gen builds are incredibly simple to play with the proper gear, and are clearly the builds of choice in t2 and k6s. Outside of hitting bloodshed every 12 seconds, there is nothing else you have to do other than use combos and maybe use blood pact. These builds make me think the DT is easier than the guard. But if you need to roll a depravity spec an make it work in a good group and raid force, I think it is more complicated. Seal of chaos has a cast time (even though short) and a much longer cool down than the other aoe taunts, making it harder to use more effectively. Mana management in depravity builds also adds a degree of complexity and judgement. You need to be able to turn off soul barrier or pact while not missing combos to keep your aggro up. You need to use mystical bane intelligently to keep a steady mana flow. You need to know when and how to use the dread effectively as an off tank, and you often need to be ready to kill it because of raid mechanics. Overall I think there is a lot of thought going on to be an effective depravoty DT that kind of gets lost because of how "easy" it is to play des/gen in easier instances.

That leaves guard as the easiest. Guard is the least gear dependent, which makes it an easy class to break in to. Playing a guard to its full potential isn't exactly easy, but I do believe it is the easiest of the soldier classes. There is no weapon swapping or mana management. It has the best aoe taunt by far. It does not require as many combos as the other classes in a typical rotation. It is easy to drop aggro without fear of dying because of high mitigation. It does have a ton of activated abilities which are fun to manage, but that is no more complex than Conq. If you can read a guide and learn a combo rotation and when to use your abilities to maximize hate, there ceases to be much judgment in terms of playing the class, at least in my opinion.

Of course I have played Conq by far the most, so maybe my opinion is skewed

It just isn't that simple, you've got so many hidden factors with guardian while you can just flip on the parser and SEE EXACTLY how much DPS (and thus aggro/healing etc.) you are doing with DT/conq. That's the "hard" part, I assume everyone here is reasonably efficient in keyboarding as most of you probably played super Mario bros and doom/quake growing up.

Let's put it this way, I've run with t4 guards before in 6mans and Wing 1, I was in full T2 with 1 piece of khitai purple(the gloves from abyss). Result: I was locking aggro on myself like no tomorrow. Even the other guard was like "dude you got full T4 too!" I was tempted to unlock my gear tab so he can see I was in just full T2 but I decided not to ruin his day. Point is, guard is mostly skill (at least the holding aggro part) and apart from massive amounts of straight up +hate gear very little will change this fact.

[Chillee]

Weapon swapping adds an entirely new element to Conq skill that isn't present in the guard or DT.

Depending on the situation and mob shields, guards should be swapping weapons.

[Mathieulombardi]

It just isn't that simple, you've got so many hidden factors with guardian while you can just flip on the parser and SEE EXACTLY how much DPS (and thus aggro/healing etc.) you are doing with DT/conq. That's the "hard" part, I assume everyone here is reasonably efficient in keyboarding as most of you probably played super Mario bros and doom/quake growing up.

Let's put it this way, I've run with t4 guards before in 6mans and Wing 1, I was in full T2 with 1 piece of khitai purple(the gloves from abyss). Result: I was locking aggro on myself like no tomorrow. Even the other guard was like "dude you got full T4 too!" I was tempted to unlock my gear tab so he can see I was in just full T2 but I decided not to ruin his day. Point is, guard is mostly skill (at least the holding aggro part) and apart from massive amounts of straight up +hate gear very little will change this fact.

That's a poor way to illustrate your point. And, your point isn't that solid.

Player skill being: finger accuracy/precision, in fights where you have to move non keyboard turner, if you're a clicker then how precise and accurate is your mouse aim to click the right buttons - and general quickness. There's perception, anticipation, decision making, positioning. Herein lies the strategy and the mental part of the game. That in a nutshell is the skill needed to play this game in general.

And if you use that criteria to determine which class requires the highest skill, then the class that requires the most mental, physical, and techinical dexterity and ingenuity is the one. In this case, I believe DT is last. I deleted my guard before 80 so I can't say but from what I've read it requires more micro, decision making than the conq. Let's be honest, swapping weapons isn't that hard. All classes need to get their rotation down, that includes swapping weapons for combo then switch back for total congruency. It's not hard at all, esp for a pro conq like robby.

[Pusjo]

Guys remember.. Never go full retard.. Never full retard..

[cins]

I could've sworn this was a ringofset thread from the title. Good thing I was wrong.
...
This sort of depends on what you consider to be skill. If your definition of skill is required finger/hand dexterity from player during gameplay, then it's probably shield guard due to the billion buttons needed, followed by brute conq, spear guard and dt at the lowest end. If you define skill as being able to alter your rotations/toggles on the fly to respond to stuff happening, it's probably brute conq followed by dt and shield guard with spear guard at the last spot (I might be wrong about this assessment though). If it's the more strategical concerns (build optimization, gear selection, AA choices) we're looking at, it's probably dt at the highest end followed by conq and both guards sharing last spot.
And if we're looking for a combination of all of those, I have no idea what finaly tally would be.

[Kascio]

Besides the whole thing about conqs tanking with three combos or commenting that guards defensive tools are active while conq is just a bubble boy.

Maybe I'm biased (all the answers so far lead me to believe I am) but I put it as guard, conq, DT in order of most to least skill based.

Guards are clearly first. They are the most ability intensive tank and you really need to finger bang the hell out of your keyboard to get the most out of them. You also basically have two combo rotations based on whether or not guard destroyer crit buff is running or not.

I believe conqs are second for a variety of reasons. Seven combo rotation, additional debuff combo to look out for, weapon swapping is required, around 10 active abilities to juggle in my and most standard specs. I believe I also see bubbles differently than most people. Proper timing on your bubbles can in a lot of instances double their effectiveness. Remember one bubble is only 5 seconds long and knowing the right time to activate it requires a lot of knowledge of the fight. I wonder if the people commenting have conqs that successfully swap aggro with DTs in t4 or they are speaking from 6man experience.

DT is the least skill based to me because outside of working the shields, there is little choice about how and when you use your abilities/combos. Your only basic choices are when to use the dread and when to use blood pact. Outside of that, everything is a no brainer. Turn off soul barrier if low on manager and/or a lot of quick hitting dmg is incoming. Keep zone of gluttony up. When I'm playing my DT I feel like I'm just spamming combos with no real decisions to be made besides what combo to use. Tali/gen spec is even worse than the traditional dread/desecration or dread/des/gen. To me the skill part of a DT is knowing what aggro level you are at and making the decision to drop aggro or hit harder when running low on health. DT is still a step above most other classes needed skill level and miles ahead of carnage conq skill level.

Anyways just my 2 cents.

QFT

Couldn't agree more.

[Invino]

It seems everyone has forgotten to tank on Guards. Even more so if you learned to tank on DT and Conq 1st

GUARD is easiest if you know how.
Lock aggro, drop aggro, tank Tier 3/4 bosses while giving raid orders without looking with Tier 1 Chest and Polearm and some culture gear.