DT & Conqs & You(nerfing isnt the answer)

[woodcarver74]

Well, since they clearly have stated they dont have Resources to revamp anything in the forseen future i Guess the question is not worthy of mutch consideration.

I must admitt i dissagree With you on the statement that vom is what makes a dt so OP. I played since the start, a lott. And already before the AA^s got implemented only the good guards and conqs had a chance of keeping up With me on aggro.(thid was ofc afther the rewamp that lifted the dt from the real ounderdogg lvl we had for a loong time)I ofc already had a good lvl of gear at that moment.

I agree With noite, most of the big aas the dt have in topp rank is usless, i do use dread lord and infusion for some fights, but it would not work well if i didnt have all the dt setts to choose from, and Close to full t4 sett. But remove my vom and i would still outaggro almost anyone. I just had to remember to use crit and hit rating big pots all the time, and tweak a bit more to tiger accesories or simmilar.

The poblem is that some ppl dont seem to realise something. Its not like we got t4,khitai and so on dropped into Our hands,(now at this moment it might be true, but not 2-3 years ago) i have worked trough all the setts from full t1 , the t2 i have trashed, and are considering to buy it again for vanity, thats how mutch some ppl have played. If i bring my dt for a khitai hm or a t1, t2 raid i will ofc be insanely owerpowered, not just because of the gear but also because i know the class well. I often want to go for these raids, and try to, when my short term memory alows, to inform this to the raidleader, and offer to go dps so the New tanks can have fun. If he needs me to tank sure, but i preffer to dps or be offtank.

On the dps theme, i have always found physical dps gear to work better for dt than the wisdom gear, specialy because of the aggro problem. And that high lvl of dps is not so usefull if you move the zodiak all the time or die in every fight. If you have Power, you must also have Control. Better to be on topp 1/4 of dps list and have controll and usefulness than to topp it and cause problems or die.

I agree on the statement earlyer abouth dread speccs. you dont topp parser With a dread specced, not in t3 and t4, you simply cant go With that mutch dps just With gear and still be tanking in a usefull way. as a dps offtank or pure dps role yes sure. But not wile vielding dread. You dont gain dps without giving up survivability, it is a Balance, all the time.

This is ofc a lott of my personal experience With dt, i know some will disagree.

At the moment i use 5 different speccs on dt, 2 With dread specced, both ment for t4 and a few Selected bosses in t3. The other 3 speccs are different grades of dps speccs, ment for different lvl of Dungeons and raids, almost anything below t3. but also for some fights in t3, 1 is pure dps specc, ment for talisman, tiger and some magical items, like the vile cape, sword and talisman from t3, the rest tiger gear and dps accesories ( might trow in the t4 chest at hard parts) i can still tank everything up and including w1, and all trash and a few bosses in t2. if im focused and in a good Group.
(Id say i have ca 1200-1300 dps outputt in the dps specc, With more im useless since i ruin for the tank. and yes i do mix in hatedecrease gear, i have to)

Dont judge the dt just from one situation, in some situasjons it perform awesomely, in another it wont do so well but a guard is better. Remember that a dt have to switch gear constantly, from boss to boss, from instance to instance, yes somethimes i even switch gear and aas during fights, like at thoth.

Anyway now im ranting, i agree that if they are going to change vom, they have to get the other aas working. I would say max change could be a smal decrease in the amount of procs it do. But then the have to make like scarab Knight and blood shroud etc work, in what situasion is bloodshroud even remotely usefull, transference of stamina to mana. the few bosses that drain mana maybe, i have never felt the need. Not Close.

At the moment i feel the tank classes are well balanced, theyt work far better together than they have at any moment before. Only in pvp i can se a problem, but its not a class problem, its a gear problem.

[KullOfValusia]

Well, since they clearly have stated they dont have Resources to revamp anything in the forseen future i Guess the question is not worthy of mutch consideration.

I must admitt i dissagree With you on the statement that vom is what makes a dt so OP. I played since the start, a lott. And already before the AA^s got implemented only the good guards and conqs had a chance of keeping up With me on aggro.(thid was ofc afther the rewamp that lifted the dt from the real ounderdogg lvl we had for a loong time)I ofc already had a good lvl of gear at that moment.

I agree With noite, most of the big aas the dt have in topp rank is usless, i do use dread lord and infusion for some fights, but it would not work well if i didnt have all the dt setts to choose from, and Close to full t4 sett. But remove my vom and i would still outaggro almost anyone. I just had to remember to use crit and hit rating big pots all the time, and tweak a bit more to tiger accesories or simmilar.

The poblem is that some ppl dont seem to realise something. Its not like we got t4,khitai and so on dropped into Our hands,(now at this moment it might be true, but not 2-3 years ago) i have worked trough all the setts from full t1 , the t2 i have trashed, and are considering to buy it again for vanity, thats how mutch some ppl have played. If i bring my dt for a khitai hm or a t1, t2 raid i will ofc be insanely owerpowered, not just because of the gear but also because i know the class well. I often want to go for these raids, and try to, when my short term memory alows, to inform this to the raidleader, and offer to go dps so the New tanks can have fun. If he needs me to tank sure, but i preffer to dps or be offtank.

On the dps theme, i have always found physical dps gear to work better for dt than the wisdom gear, specialy because of the aggro problem. And that high lvl of dps is not so usefull if you move the zodiak all the time or die in every fight. If you have Power, you must also have Control. Better to be on topp 1/4 of dps list and have controll and usefulness than to topp it and cause problems or die.

I agree on the statement earlyer abouth dread speccs. you dont topp parser With a dread specced, not in t3 and t4, you simply cant go With that mutch dps just With gear and still be tanking in a usefull way. as a dps offtank or pure dps role yes sure. But not wile vielding dread. You dont gain dps without giving up survivability, it is a Balance, all the time.

This is ofc a lott of my personal experience With dt, i know some will disagree.

At the moment i use 5 different speccs on dt, 2 With dread specced, both ment for t4 and a few Selected bosses in t3. The other 3 speccs are different grades of dps speccs, ment for different lvl of Dungeons and raids, almost anything below t3. but also for some fights in t3, 1 is pure dps specc, ment for talisman, tiger and some magical items, like the vile cape, sword and talisman from t3, the rest tiger gear and dps accesories ( might trow in the t4 chest at hard parts) i can still tank everything up and including w1, and all trash and a few bosses in t2. if im focused and in a good Group.
(Id say i have ca 1200-1300 dps outputt in the dps specc, With more im useless since i ruin for the tank. and yes i do mix in hatedecrease gear, i have to)

Dont judge the dt just from one situation, in some situasjons it perform awesomely, in another it wont do so well but a guard is better. Remember that a dt have to switch gear constantly, from boss to boss, from instance to instance, yes somethimes i even switch gear and aas during fights, like at thoth.

Anyway now im ranting, i agree that if they are going to change vom, they have to get the other aas working. I would say max change could be a smal decrease in the amount of procs it do. But then the have to make like scarab Knight and blood shroud etc work, in what situasion is bloodshroud even remotely usefull, transference of stamina to mana. the few bosses that drain mana maybe, i have never felt the need. Not Close.

At the moment i feel the tank classes are well balanced, theyt work far better together than they have at any moment before. Only in pvp i can se a problem, but its not a class problem, its a gear problem.

You seem to be comparing tanking with that of guards. Here's the beef with that. DTs can tank anything in the game... so can guards. DTs however do an insane amount of DPS while tanking everything in the game(1200,2500 its crazy) their aggro (properly specced) will outstrip a guards easily. They can do all this while having great survivability and being able to cast dread shadow.

Guards too can tank anything in the game, their DPS is around or sometimes below a PoMs (400~500)..again depending upon. They are third on the max aggro potential list (below even a conq...although conqs shouldn't really be main tanking..can be done though in certain situations.) They have decent survivability although in a 6man a DT will outstrip the guard in this department as well.

So, basically you have a class that can tank as effectively (if not better) then a guard and dish out damage like a rogue(if not better). This may prove to be problematic in terms of game balance... maybe just a tad. Thus, my original fear of incoming nerfs.

P.S. Oh BTW, this discussion has become moot. I recently discovered that our GD's(Joel Bylos) main is a Dark Templar. A nerf to vom or anything DT related is probably well off the table. Carry on.

[Unutterable]

their DPS is around or sometimes below a PoMs (400~500)

Your PoM is bad.

On the subject at hand, OP seems unhappy guard is the current underdog. DT was at launch, conk was trash after 1.05, there is always going be a weak man on the totem pole. From a purely pve perspective, I'd say S+B guards could probably use a dps buff, but honestly the class is so boring and flat it's no wonder the devs don't play it.

OP should roll a conk. Bestest class ever.

[KullOfValusia]

Your PoM is bad.

On the subject at hand, OP seems unhappy guard is the current underdog. DT was at launch, conk was trash after 1.05, there is always going be a weak man on the totem pole. From a purely pve perspective, I'd say S+B guards could probably use a dps buff, but honestly the class is so boring and flat it's no wonder the devs don't play it.

OP should roll a conk. Bestest class ever.

The DPS range was for the guard BTW, hence from your reaction I was correct in stating that guards really do get below pom DPS.. which is so very sad for anything called a "soldier".

Yes agreed conqs are absolutely insane right now. Anyhow, the thread should illuminate on the fact that many of the classes need a look see to adjust accordingly their role/function in the raid/6man..even dare I say it PvP. Because one of the worst feelings a player can have is getting into a group and realizing that you have absolutely no role in it because another class can do it better. Its a problem, and is a big factor in deterring me from logging on anymore.

[woodcarver74]

Yes i hear what you are saying, but 1200-2500 is not possible With a dread specc, its just no way you can get that to work. With a dread specc id dare to say Your dps could be max 600-800, and thats topps, you would be risking a fast Death even With that.
Yes the guards dps is wery smal compared to a dts, but a good guard have no problem keeping up With a dtthe aggro side. And a good guard will end up on the middle of the dps parser in anything up and With t3 if the gearlvl is the same. The dt was always ment as a draining dps tank, the guard was always ment as a pure tank, that they dint gave it more dps might be unfair, but thats how it is. and only realy good geared conqs that know how to play can tank as well as a good guard or dt, experience comes to show.

A 2500 dps outputt will only come With a pure wisdomsettup from either khitai or t4, and you cant tank shitt With a settup like that. you will mostly start bravely and die screeming. The only way you can tank as that is if someone else pulls, or you stunn at charge, because you wont gain survivability before Your stacks are high, and if the boss add do any kind of fear, stunn any cc that breaks Your combos wile you still take damage you will be dead.

You cant tank, have dread and do more than a certain amount of dps.
And any class With full khitai or t4 will be pretty insane, ever seen a pom or tos that realy know how to play With full khitai or t4 or equivalent, they are pretty insane, espsecialy if its in a low lvl instance like a grasslands or t3 and Down. and its not only healing they are awesome at. Same With necro and demo. and most classes in my opinion.

[Chillee]

Well, since they clearly have stated they dont have Resources to revamp anything in the forseen future i Guess the question is not worthy of mutch consideration.

I must admitt i dissagree With you on the statement that vom is what makes a dt so OP. I played since the start, a lott. And already before the AA^s got implemented only the good guards and conqs had a chance of keeping up With me on aggro.(thid was ofc afther the rewamp that lifted the dt from the real ounderdogg lvl we had for a loong time)I ofc already had a good lvl of gear at that moment.

I agree With noite, most of the big aas the dt have in topp rank is usless, i do use dread lord and infusion for some fights, but it would not work well if i didnt have all the dt setts to choose from, and Close to full t4 sett. But remove my vom and i would still outaggro almost anyone. I just had to remember to use crit and hit rating big pots all the time, and tweak a bit more to tiger accesories or simmilar.

The poblem is that some ppl dont seem to realise something. Its not like we got t4,khitai and so on dropped into Our hands,(now at this moment it might be true, but not 2-3 years ago) i have worked trough all the setts from full t1 , the t2 i have trashed, and are considering to buy it again for vanity, thats how mutch some ppl have played. If i bring my dt for a khitai hm or a t1, t2 raid i will ofc be insanely owerpowered, not just because of the gear but also because i know the class well. I often want to go for these raids, and try to, when my short term memory alows, to inform this to the raidleader, and offer to go dps so the New tanks can have fun. If he needs me to tank sure, but i preffer to dps or be offtank.

On the dps theme, i have always found physical dps gear to work better for dt than the wisdom gear, specialy because of the aggro problem. And that high lvl of dps is not so usefull if you move the zodiak all the time or die in every fight. If you have Power, you must also have Control. Better to be on topp 1/4 of dps list and have controll and usefulness than to topp it and cause problems or die.

I agree on the statement earlyer abouth dread speccs. you dont topp parser With a dread specced, not in t3 and t4, you simply cant go With that mutch dps just With gear and still be tanking in a usefull way. as a dps offtank or pure dps role yes sure. But not wile vielding dread. You dont gain dps without giving up survivability, it is a Balance, all the time.

This is ofc a lott of my personal experience With dt, i know some will disagree.

At the moment i use 5 different speccs on dt, 2 With dread specced, both ment for t4 and a few Selected bosses in t3. The other 3 speccs are different grades of dps speccs, ment for different lvl of Dungeons and raids, almost anything below t3. but also for some fights in t3, 1 is pure dps specc, ment for talisman, tiger and some magical items, like the vile cape, sword and talisman from t3, the rest tiger gear and dps accesories ( might trow in the t4 chest at hard parts) i can still tank everything up and including w1, and all trash and a few bosses in t2. if im focused and in a good Group.
(Id say i have ca 1200-1300 dps outputt in the dps specc, With more im useless since i ruin for the tank. and yes i do mix in hatedecrease gear, i have to)

Dont judge the dt just from one situation, in some situasjons it perform awesomely, in another it wont do so well but a guard is better. Remember that a dt have to switch gear constantly, from boss to boss, from instance to instance, yes somethimes i even switch gear and aas during fights, like at thoth.

Anyway now im ranting, i agree that if they are going to change vom, they have to get the other aas working. I would say max change could be a smal decrease in the amount of procs it do. But then the have to make like scarab Knight and blood shroud etc work, in what situasion is bloodshroud even remotely usefull, transference of stamina to mana. the few bosses that drain mana maybe, i have never felt the need. Not Close.

At the moment i feel the tank classes are well balanced, theyt work far better together than they have at any moment before. Only in pvp i can se a problem, but its not a class problem, its a gear problem.

Without vom, DT would be behind the 2 other classes. It isn't even debatable. If you're outtanking the conqs and guards you're playing with and you don't use vom, they aren't playing their class very well.

And you complain about vom being the only gold perk worthwhile, there are no decent golds for a guard to use. Only STA and its really only useful in 6 mans. Conqs got the better end of the deal in that regard.

[barbaricwildcat2]

Fine, you sins, barbs,demos,guards blah blah all have a GOOD point. But is nerfing DTs and conqs really the answer?

My thoughts are NO, its not. Rather, think about buffing the other classes. What can say a sin bring to the table other then DPS? What role can a guard do other then tanking duties? Perhaps a raid boss can only be fully debuffed with 2 demos in the raid group(and not more conqs). I think rather then destroying or nerfing the classes that may be a bit ahead currently a rethinking of the other classes role(so they dont feel so useless)would make more people happy. Please, let's discuss on how to improve the roles of non-DT/conqs in both pve and PvP.

increasing dps of rogues is a great idea

all ill have to do with my sin is hide, from the darkness, sds and fs on the nearest clothie, and hide again, rinse and repeat for 10 kills and zero deaths each game.

nerf is honestly the only way to go from my perspective

[woodcarver74]

I would hang a little behind without vom, but a little tweak and just a bit more agressive aggro, and i could follow almost anyone but the Close to full t4 geared conqs and guards. well, i have 250 days of gametime on my dt alone, and fully trained AAS, All the setts,tigers wolfs,ll,BD, only miss helmet, neclage,cape and rings from t4. i got every gear part thats is Close to usefull for dt. and less usefull like all the 4 neclages from irontower, rings from xiba etc etc And i Guess im one of the more social guys, i think i must have played With most Guilds on crom, and fury, and back on aqualonia. And most of the tanks i have played With are awesome, but you make vom to important. its only smal part of the dt. it give it a edge, thats Clear, but its not that important that the dt still would not shine. Ofc New players would have a worse time of because it is a wery gear dependant class, so they would get a harder start, but dt useless without vom, far from it.

[barbaricwildcat2]

Wouldn't it be better to adjust the various rewards for doing pvp minigames?

i dont really care for rewards

i go for wins simply cuz im a pvper

[barbaricwildcat2]

OK, there needs to be less moaning and groaning and more constructive ideas on improving classes.

Rangers: Give em a gold perk. An ability to fire when in hide. Maybe useable three times then 3 minute cool down.

Sins: Coup de grace. A gold perk allowing a stacked critical attack. With each critical attack a counter increases by one which allows the next critical attack to increase its multiplier by one and so on.

Demo: Mirrors.Three copies of the demo are created for a short time each does exactly half the damage of the original demo. each mirror has half the HP of the original demo and can be healed normally.
Guards: um, give em a gold perk. Evolution. When this skill is activated your guard will transform into a DT for a short time.

pvp killed

are you kidding me?

and um, guard transforming?