DT & Conqs & You(nerfing isnt the answer)

[KullOfValusia]

If ,in the distant future, the devs get around to balancing the classes, you, me, your sister, and Santa Claus knows without a doubt the first on the chopping block will be DTs and conqs.

The vets here know the routine whining. They DPS better then the DPS classes... and for DTs can tank as well as a guard while doing the parse topping DPS AND eating ice cream. Conqs also have parse topping DPS and have heavy armor mitigation (better then rogues) and let's throw in the single most useful utility spell in the game, conq rezz. The DT can pull the perfect OT out of his pocket! All my raid mates want DT tanks and conqs for DPS!! Except for healers...WHY ROLL ANYTHING ELSE?!

Fine, you sins, barbs,demos,guards blah blah all have a GOOD point. But is nerfing DTs and conqs really the answer?

My thoughts are NO, its not. Rather, think about buffing the other classes. What can say a sin bring to the table other then DPS? What role can a guard do other then tanking duties? Perhaps a raid boss can only be fully debuffed with 2 demos in the raid group(and not more conqs). I think rather then destroying or nerfing the classes that may be a bit ahead currently a rethinking of the other classes role(so they dont feel so useless)would make more people happy. Please, let's discuss on how to improve the roles of non-DT/conqs in both pve and PvP.

[Chillee]

Buffing other classes to the level of a DT just makes the game too easy, from a PVE standpoint.

VOM is too OP. Carnage conq is OP. Making other classes similarly OP ruins the game. Solo content on either class is stupid easy and both classes make most 6 mans a joke.

The only way to fix is to nerf conq dps, and nerf VOM. Doing that would probably take more hours than FC has or is willing to invest in class balancing, so we'll probably never see it, but that doesn't make it any less right.

[Kurt2013]

They obviously lacked a good evaluation and balancing routine from the start. But classes in AoC are having widespread options (even conqs, rangers and DTs) now, that you can easily keep messing things up ad&d 1st edition style, unless you use such a routine...

And it can be done on scratch first. Give each class a budget, assign every feat, ability and combo or spell a value and GO!

Nowadays with the power of automated sheets and background calculations this is not that hard...others have done it before, just by thinking and using a pen and a paper (not even a calculator is really needed).

With the amount of things in AoC it will take some time, but the analysis of power budgets alone would prove interesting, i bet.

Also once done, it will be easier to figure out how to deal with single OP spells, feats, abilities etc.. and if they can be nerfed, modified or replaced.

A pity the resource database yg was outdated and is gone now. But if we had the data (casting time, damage procs, damage calculations, mana/stamina cost, debuff/buff or dps values etc.), we could evaluate the classes in a few weeks, i bet.

[-tomhet-]

you cant nerf vom without revamping dt first, no way around this.

conqs needs:
overcome the odds to roll back to previous version wich was easier to detect
have retaliation tweaked to reflect damage based on amount of damage received and not simply sources of damage
burst of aggression kb only doing kb at end of cast
add to olp a damage cap.

[Kurt2013]

What Noite80 said, might very well be, what comes out from such an evaluation. Imagine we get a class value for DT as it is of 10000 points, Conq 10200 points, PoM 9900 points and HoX maybe 9600 points. Then VoM alone might be worth 800 points. Easy to see, that for real balance DTs need to get something in return.
When you do a thorough analysis and documentation first, you would also have a LOT of an easier job in revamping, because you would automatically know where to look and modify.

Another example how in practice such a comparison might be done:
You assign values to the tiers in feat build, resulting in a feat power number.
You assign values to the automatically learned combos and abilities, resulting in the combo/spell/ability power number.
You assign values to the different AA tiers, resulting in a AA power number.
Then you will have an idea what is wrong (and where) with each class.

The main work with this will be, to get the right values for things like cast time, damage, stats etc., but once done, it will be easy as pie to revamp, balance and modify classes.

[-tomhet-]

when a class (dt) needs constant spellweaving with no negative debuffs to work and compete with other classes then its not fine its broken.

like most other unrevamped classes it has 2 end feats wich are unusable, has only 1 agro tool seal of chaos wich unlike other tanks wich have short cooldowns to reuse this has 1 minute cooldown, and a very poor hate tool curse of gwalur wich requires you to already have agro to generate agro.

only thing making class able to compete and surpass other tanks is void of madness, wich is realy just spellweaving!

revamp is needed like a lot of other classes to make other gameplay possibilities improved and opened as well as finaly adjusting vom dependancy to class to work.

it might even need to have a new set of armor come to play with magic stat in it if vom is nerfed along side revamping the feats that need fixing along side making other perks viable for either tanking or pvp.

but any simplistitic direct nerf to vom would realy just break class.

understand im not defending vom, im just stating its not viable to just nerf it.

[Rathothis]

you cant nerf vom without revamping dt first, no way around this.

conqs needs:
overcome the odds to roll back to previous version wich was easier to detect
have retaliation tweaked to reflect damage based on amount of damage received and not simply sources of damage
burst of aggression kb only doing kb at end of cast
add to olp a damage cap.

OP seems to refer to PvE "imbalances". But the Conq PvP issues you point out should be given priority.

As to imbalances in PvE dps, I don't think this is a priority issue. Sure, in certain encounters some raid leaders may stack DTs and Conqs, like they previously stacked Necros. But I'd be surprised if a lot of raid leaders were forcing players to completely abandon their Rangers, HoXes etc in favour of DTs / Conqs. A capable player will do sufficient dps on pretty much any class, with the exception of S&B Guard.

[AngryBarb]

Wouldn't it be better to adjust the various rewards for doing pvp minigames? I mean tweak the xp, tokens etc. in a way so every player would have more incentive to work as team on the objectives in pvp battles, rather than just going "me me me" Aka K/D whoring.

Point is, in pve it's usually not a big deal if a dt or conq tops the parse, after all they are contributing to the success of a raid or 6man.

[Derek-Drake]

Bringing other classes up to the ridiculous OP'ness of the DT would break the game. Every raid would have to be retweaked around it. Basically an entire game revamp.

Some things about the DT need to be addressed badly:

1) Combo Cancelling. It's pure BS that a DT can jump to cancel his most powerful AoE combo and still get almost full damage, with almost no cooldown, oh and it cancels the fear too. Must be nice.

2) The ability to wear every type of armor in the game is absurd. Every class in the game should only be able to wear their specific type of armor. The ability to tank in Scarlet Circle cloth is absolute ********. Go back to the beginning of the game where only Guards had full plate... maybe they'd be worth a damn again.

3) Trinity in one. The DT's ability to be the trinity all in one class is game breaking. They can top the parse while tanking and self healing all at the same time. Why even bother having a trinity at all? Something out of the three of these needs to go, and I vote the self heals. If they wanna pull aggro off the Guards, then fine, but they don't get to have their own blue heal while doing it.

[KullOfValusia]

OK, there needs to be less moaning and groaning and more constructive ideas on improving classes.

Rangers: Give em a gold perk. An ability to fire when in hide. Maybe useable three times then 3 minute cool down.

Sins: Coup de grace. A gold perk allowing a stacked critical attack. With each critical attack a counter increases by one which allows the next critical attack to increase its multiplier by one and so on.

Demo: Mirrors.Three copies of the demo are created for a short time each does exactly half the damage of the original demo. each mirror has half the HP of the original demo and can be healed normally.
Guards: um, give em a gold perk. Evolution. When this skill is activated your guard will transform into a DT for a short time.