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Thread: Game Director Letter - April 2013

  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azmith View Post
    I think rewards should DOUBLE for unchained, then the "normal" minis will get a lot more high end geared players to compete with on even footing. It's not about casual vs non casual... it's about Skill > Gear... you know... winning because you're good, not because you have inflated numbers on some piece of armor.
    You obviously don't believe what you preach because if it is really about skill then you'd have no reason to ever want to sign up for normal minis. Another guy that wants the have his cake and eat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azmith View Post
    Skill based PVP is not "noob friendly"... I'd say the "normal" minis are "noob friendly" in that if idiot guild A farms idiot noob 1 t4 gear, they can idiot there way to victory with barely any effort due to the gear. You want to talk about normal minis, let's go back to 2008.
    Please tell me all about 2008 minis. You know, the time when barb cyclone could one shot anyone. Or when gemmed gear dominated the game and guardians were white hitting people to death in a few hits. Or perhaps you remember the charge bug where you could queue up 20+ charges and one shot most classes. Or remember when the original pvp gear was introduced and it gave people 35% magic and physical mitigation whereas all non pvp gear less than 5%? Then after adding the battlekeep buffs, players were at over 50% mitigation. Yea, those were the days. Tell me about more about 2008.

    I could go on but what's the point? You have strong opinions but no real logic or evidence to back your points up with.
    Last edited by Milkshakess; 5th May 2013 at 02:20.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis View Post
    I do understand the proverb, but fail to see how it is relevant to the issue at hand. To be clear about this: Unchained minigames will not remove vertical progression from other PvP scenarios in the game. Thus, open world PvP, sieges, and "normal" minis will still be affected by the gear / AA gap we see now. I find it somewhat inconsistent that you appear to be fine with players closing that gap by PvTreeing (Bori) and PvEing (everything from Khitai to T4 raids), but at the same time oppose rewards for actually doing PvP.
    You say you understand it but your posts suggest otherwise. Pvp scenerios outside minis probably make up less than 10% of the total pvp that occurs in this game but the real point is this:

    If you truly want a system that is purely based on skill then gear wouldn't be a motivating factor. I don't believe you are being honest. I think what it really comes down to is people don't like the fact that they have to go through progression to be competitive in which case, splitting minis is a much better solution to the problem.

    Players in this game are some of the most illogical and overly-opinionated people I've come across. Most are dishonest in their posts and their main focus is usually themselves rather than the greater good of the game.

    What they say: We want premades!
    What they mean: We want to stack good players versus bad player or premade vs pug stomp people.
    Evidence: Look no further than the empty tournament mode queues for evidence.

    What they say: We want skill based pvp!
    What they mean: We want skill based pvp that still awards progression gear thus circumventing the progression system but still progressing.
    Watch and see on this one. Implement a purely skill based system that doesn't award gear and see how many people actually play it. It'll be a little more popular than tournament but I don't believe that skill based pvp can stand on its own. If you give gear to these type of minis then you are only proving that it was never about skill vs. gear but about obtaining gear more easily.

  3. #103

  4. #104

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    @Milk

    There should be higher rewards for people who play unchained minies. Why? There people play with their skill (i hope) and not with gear. Most of players can "do" something in current AoC because of their gear and that is wrong. Without gear they are nothing.

    Why should those kinda players get rewards who never increase their own personal skills in PvP. There should be double or triple rewards for those who have balls to fight without their precious gear

    Quote Originally Posted by Azmith View Post
    fresh 80s
    Those full geared PvP 10 characters which were farmed on Crom for year were fresh?

    I could name many of them, which appeared suddenly

    But then again, i was not part of (premade) battles against them.
    Just pointing out fact so you do not lie
    Last edited by darknessjw; 5th May 2013 at 07:19.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshakess View Post
    What they say: We want premades!
    What they mean: We want to stack good players versus bad player or premade vs pug stomp people.
    Evidence: Look no further than the empty tournament mode queues for evidence.

    What they say: We want skill based pvp!
    What they mean: We want skill based pvp that still awards progression gear thus circumventing the progression system but still progressing.
    Watch and see on this one. Implement a purely skill based system that doesn't award gear and see how many people actually play it. It'll be a little more popular than tournament but I don't believe that skill based pvp can stand on its own. If you give gear to these type of minis then you are only proving that it was never about skill vs. gear but about obtaining gear more easily.
    If anything, your argument is more dishonest than that. You admit that gear is an important incentive for people, as long as there is vertical progression. And then you suggest to take away that incentive for Unchained minis, so you can finger-point at the people who supported them when queues are empty.

    People will always look for ways to get gear as long as it is relevant. The question then is whether it makes sense to provide incentives to PvTree and PvE in order to get the edge in PvP, but to provide no incentives to engage in PvP in a scenario where, even as a noob / casual with bad gear, you have a chance to improve as a player. I have a clear and consistent position on that.

    Your position by contrast is that you want to punish people for "circumventing the progression system". The starting point for this is that vertical progression is "a good thing" that should be protected against circumvention. I strongly disagree with that. Vertical progression, at least if it is as steep as currently in AoC, only serves to kill the PvP population. It is not "a good thing" and anything that allows people to "circumvent" it should be encouraged.

    The only thing in your post that I agree with is "I don't believe that skill based pvp can stand on its own". Yes, a game should provide incentives to engage in PvP. But gear is not a good incentive since it further increases the gap between vets on the one hand and noobs and casuals on the other hand. Give statistics, rankings, titles, vanity gear, or whatnot which good players can compete over, without excluding noobs and casuals from PvP.
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by darknessjw View Post
    @Milk

    There should be higher rewards for people who play unchained minies. Why? There people play with their skill (i hope) and not with gear. Most of players can "do" something in current AoC because of their gear and that is wrong. Without gear they are nothing.

    Why should those kinda players get rewards who never increase their own personal skills in PvP. There should be double or triple rewards for those who have balls to fight without their precious gear



    Those full geared PvP 10 characters which were farmed on Crom for year were fresh?

    I could name many of them, which appeared suddenly

    But then again, i was not part of (premade) battles against them.
    Just pointing out fact so you do not lie
    thats a given lol

    rewards will obviously be better in unchained

  7. #107

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    You should keep in mind one thing Rathothis mentioned:

    Vertical progression!

    Who said progression has to be linear and very limited?
    I'd say give equal rewards or slightly less for the "unchained" but with something extra to allow for better renown and vanity rewards from that route, while still allowing progression for open pvp (which is senseless without some working consequence system).

    It all comes down "how" they implement that "unchained" queue...and we still have only rumours and very basic info about that.

    All ways mentioned in this thread adress different moods and player types and both involve risk, challenge and pvp. So both ways should be rewarding!

    Btw, even a levelled playfield will not be purely skillbased, due to technical reasons (just try playing an assasin with good connection and the same assasin on bad connection). Not mentioning third party tools like teamspeak or ventrilo which can give small groups (allied or not) a cutting edge in pugs. This is not meant judgingly, just stating that even if you take gear and AA out of the equation, there are still lots of other factors left apart from "skill".
    Last edited by Kurt2013; 5th May 2013 at 07:59.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathothis View Post
    People will always look for ways to get gear
    whoa there mate: poor player base

    how do u figure ppl care for gear progression if pop is so low?

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbaricwildcat2 View Post
    whoa there mate: poor player base

    how do u figure ppl care for gear progression if pop is so low?
    Like quoting out of context?

    Gear progression is a bad idea, hence the low population. But if gear progression is the only thing to compete over, people will sadly go for it. Just think about the pro PvP guilds who dominated Bori in the first months after its release, only to disband then because it had killed the fun in PvP.
    Rathothis|Tempest of Set || Tigrathes|Dark Templar || Isitnofret|Herald of Xotli
    BS|Sin|Demo|Barb|Conq
    Sudatorius|Noob barb on Rage

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshakess View Post
    You obviously don't believe what you preach because if it is really about skill then you'd have no reason to ever want to sign up for normal minis. Another guy that wants the have his cake and eat it.


    Please tell me all about 2008 minis. You know, the time when barb cyclone could one shot anyone. Or when gemmed gear dominated the game and guardians were white hitting people to death in a few hits. Or perhaps you remember the charge bug where you could queue up 20+ charges and one shot most classes. Or remember when the original pvp gear was introduced and it gave people 35% magic and physical mitigation whereas all non pvp gear less than 5%? Then after adding the battlekeep buffs, players were at over 50% mitigation. Yea, those were the days. Tell me about more about 2008.

    I could go on but what's the point? You have strong opinions but no real logic or evidence to back your points up with.
    I sign up for "Normal" minis because there's no other option, and I like fighting against PVP 10s in t2 gear because it's a challenge. I've been mini gaming since before PVP gear was even brought in to this game. Your logic is so flawed, and you're very presumptuous.
    Last edited by Azmith; 5th May 2013 at 08:31.

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