Bring Back Kills/Death stats!

[Roargathor]

I have over twice the amount of deaths compared to kills. However all my mini games/seiges are win positive. In a group setting my primary mission is to CC/disable/damage as many enemies as I can keep them off my caster/ranger team mates and the tanks can get the flags. Many Minigames I am targeted because I'm a squishy barb, but while they are targeting me, my team is nuking them. I'm not the best pvper, but I'm definitely not bad. However K/D whores would think I was bad based on how many deaths I have accumulated over the years. Yet I'm usually the one with the token at the end of the match. Now if all I did was duel people wearing the same level gear and had the same K/D, then you could say I was bad and not sound like an idiot.

[Roargathor]

As Calore mentioned, problem is k/d only thing we had, its hardly could be used as measure of skill but it was at least some information tool, coz u seen ppl in ur team and knew what to expect, ofc no1 will expect any dps from tank with kd like 200/3000, or any support from demo with k/d 4000/6000.

A good example of how this "Good K/D = good PvPer" theory is ********, is Healers. Some of the best minigames I've played where I'd get tons of kills and very few deaths were when I was teamed up with DEDICATED healers. They are few and far between, but they do exist, and they are sorely under appreciated. They are targeted and killed easily due to sacrificing offensive/defencive builds in favor of healing power. Many of them have terrible K/D, but I consider them excellent PvPer's because they know how to play the support role and because of them, the damage dealers and tanks mop the floor with enemy teams. I always make it a point to thank those players when I am fortunate enough to be matched with them. FC should include support stats along with K/D, to give everyone more than just kills to strive for.

[Binderato]

I have over twice the amount of deaths compared to kills. However all my mini games/seiges are win positive. In a group setting my primary mission is to CC/disable/damage as many enemies as I can keep them off my caster/ranger team mates and the tanks can get the flags. Many Minigames I am targeted because I'm a squishy barb, but while they are targeting me, my team is nuking them. I'm not the best pvper, but I'm definitely not bad. However K/D whores would think I was bad based on how many deaths I have accumulated over the years. Yet I'm usually the one with the token at the end of the match. Now if all I did was duel people wearing the same level gear and had the same K/D, then you could say I was bad and not sound like an idiot.

While I agree with the fact that there are players who are absolutely "KD whores"
But the majority with good KDRs are usually above average players.
I also agree there are quite a few who had bad KDRs gotten really good so KDR measuring doesn't apply to them.
However, the excuses you came up on why you have bad KDR most the time are the same excuses other players came up for their lack of skills and experience. A good player is very capable of doing all you've stated and still go positive or even top kills in mini game.
That's what separate good from the rest.
Because, it is far more easier to bluntly go pvp and die plenty of time and thinking you've done a great deal of teamwork. You can rack up 10-20 deaths a mini while getting little to no kill, the excuses dosnt work so well now does it?

Excuses are from the forgotten, the winners/top players don't have excuses.

KDR I believe still can be a good indicator on a player skill level in the terms of Movements, Situation Awareness, Experience and Class knowledge.
This is not to flame or anything
but here is a video of a player with very good KDR
vs a player with bad KDR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__MAUWDy_uQ

[Binderato]

A good example of how this "Good K/D = good PvPer" theory is ********, is Healers. Some of the best minigames I've played where I'd get tons of kills and very few deaths were when I was teamed up with DEDICATED healers. They are few and far between, but they do exist, and they are sorely under appreciated. They are targeted and killed easily due to sacrificing offensive/defencive builds in favor of healing power. Many of them have terrible K/D, but I consider them excellent PvPer's because they know how to play the support role and because of them, the damage dealers and tanks mop the floor with enemy teams. I always make it a point to thank those players when I am fortunate enough to be matched with them. FC should include support stats along with K/D, to give everyone more than just kills to strive for.

Yes, you certainly are correct here on this one.

I absolutely agree that Healers are vital in group pvp and they've not gotten the credit they deserve.
There have been plenty of minis where a good healer can determine the outcome of the match before it even starts.

However this does not apply to the majority of healers.
At the current day and age there are only a handful of healers who truly able to be called Good PvPers and these healers Usually play almost every class in game.
The rest however. is not what you call "excellent pvper" just because they are playing a healing class.
It takes far more skill for some healing class at low pvp level to able to survive, dps , cc and top kills sometimes.
This again is a separation of skill. Not everyone or healer is able to multi task, to have the movement down to survive, to have the knowledge to predict others motives (combos spells ccs etc) and at the same time being able to put up heals for the team.

In the case of healers I believe KDR dose not represent enough of an indicator to measure healers.

I would suggest to add two more stats to it one being the assist
the second would be some form of Healing being done.

However at the current state, KDR still can be a beneficial factor in determining some aspect of skill of certain players.
For healers it would be their knowledge of other classes, their experience, their situation awareness, and their movement skills.
It does not however show any form of healing/support.
Which is why a few more stats should be implemented.


In the end KD Whores are going to be in every video game, you can't change that. BY removing more statistics will only do more harm than good.

[Sarhal]

A good example of how this "Good K/D = good PvPer" theory is ********, is Healers. Some of the best minigames I've played where I'd get tons of kills and very few deaths were when I was teamed up with DEDICATED healers. They are few and far between, but they do exist, and they are sorely under appreciated. They are targeted and killed easily due to sacrificing offensive/defencive builds in favor of healing power. Many of them have terrible K/D, but I consider them excellent PvPer's because they know how to play the support role and because of them, the damage dealers and tanks mop the floor with enemy teams. I always make it a point to thank those players when I am fortunate enough to be matched with them. FC should include support stats along with K/D, to give everyone more than just kills to strive for.

If u read mine post u will not find any mention of healer in it, as I told K/D thingie was far from being objective, but at least it was SOMETHING, now we have nothing at all. Ofc good healers like pom/bs could have quite bad and be awesome players same time, BUT such exceptions in general quite known on server.

Main problem you ppl dont take in count, you saying "omg kdwhore", "omg greatteamplayerwithbadkd", "omgaltfarmer" but this kind of things in general been VERY rare and all such ppl been known by pvp community on their server, and new guys got their rep quite fast, tho in general it worked as I told.

[Binderato]

If u read mine post u will not find any mention of healer in it, as I told K/D thingie was far from being objective, but at least it was SOMETHING, now we have nothing at all. Ofc good healers like pom/bs could have quite bad and be awesome players same time, BUT such exceptions in general quite known on server.

Main problem you ppl dont take in count, you saying "omg kdwhore", "omg greatteamplayerwithbadkd", "omgaltfarmer" but this kind of things in general been VERY rare and all such ppl been known by pvp community on their server, and new guys got their rep quite fast, tho in general it worked as I told.

I agree with this.

The KDR whore are well known in the pvp community
so are the good players and the good healers

However, the community that exists today are mostly PvErs or fresh players, they do not understand the concept of Group pvp IE ( not focusing tank, take down casters etc) they instantly would call a good pvper who focus clothies such as demo/necro/hox etc a KD whore...
This is very common.

[Suctum]

I agree with this.

The KDR whore are well known in the pvp community
so are the good players and the good healers

However, the community that exists today are mostly PvErs or fresh players, they do not understand the concept of Group pvp IE ( not focusing tank, take down casters etc) they instantly would call a good pvper who focus clothies such as demo/necro/hox etc a KD whore...
This is very common.

That's because they arm themselves with T4 weapons T3 Crafted/Ibis and accessories. With the sprint revamp, it's extremely easy to kill any cloth regardless of how well they can kite or gear they have. White hit staggers, charge, snares, AoE CC's, almost unlimited sprint, stealth attacks hitting for 3k, there really is no excuse why non-ranged class cannot kill a clothie who has maybe 15% mitigation before being debuffed.

Even if they are bad, the white hit staggers will slow you down long enough for them to get a CC, well geared guards in def stance are hitting for 4k with CW, a DP with enough VoM stacks hit can hit for even more, OLP with 3 CC stacks or more the same...CoS with ATG the same, almost every class can 2-3 shot a clothie from cooldown.

The current population knows this, which is why you see so very few demo's, necro's, and Hox. I can log in at any one time and most of the players in minis will be any of the 3 tanks, Sins, and Rangers.

You take away the high DPS weapons with the crit rating and crit damage, it will be interesting to see what those classes do without their Ibis or South Cleave...

I am not saying casters can't get kills, they can and do and dominate the kill board. However, with unbalanced matches, no heals, and no team support, which is most pug minis. Against 2-3 well- geared tanks you can't really do anything other than kite. Even if you can bomb, it takes more than one person to drop their health fast enough to make them even want to run.

This is why people chase clothies, and why people play tanks. Anyone who disagrees join a mini on set at anytime and count how many tanks, rangers, and sins you see. I can count on 1 hand how many necros I see regularly in minis, and the same for demos and Hox. There's a lot of risk in playing a cloth with 15% mitigation, there is no risk playing a Guard or DT who doesn't have to leave def stance, and even if they do they still have double the mitigation of my cloth armor but almost the same single target dps, if not better.

So the culture now is if they see the one clothie, 2-3 tanks or melee will all converge on them first and fight for the kill credit. Sometimes it makes sense, like if they are focusing me. Other times, it's just some PvP 2 Demo or HoX in blue gear who is going to barely be a factor. I see people (tanks and rangers) who focus this non factor guy all game instead of the real threats. So what if that threat is a PvP 10 guard, if he's the only one who is making a difference he should be focused. Instead, people know they won't get instant credit for kills doing that and continue to farm the non factors and lose the mini while only caring about their KD, which nobody can see.

While KD makes a difference, this to me is more about gear balance and the free T4 gear which turns all these KD players into muppets.

[bruceleroy]

they should remove death count so people would stop caring about dying and start caring about wins instead.

deaths make the "so called pros" leave to avoid 1 death instead of staying and fighting to win.

I guess this it the exact difference between you and people like Geld and I. Deaths should matter, and should be taken in to consideration. In fact, there should be more of a penalty if you die. After all, its pvp, not pve. When you die in PVP I think there should be some negative impact like not being able to come back in to the mini game for a period of time, putting your team at a severe disadvantage. Or perhaps costing your team some points towards the goal. This would make people consider being dumb and just running in alone, or off on their own doing whatever they want. This would create more of a unity of the team by default.

See, when I read your comment, the first thing I think of is you are the one off trying to take on the other 6 in a mini game alone, and dying and not really trying to improve. Not a team player. While the pvper that is at 20% moves out of combat to heal up to be right back in the action to help their team, and you are cursing them out for running off. When in my eyes, they are being a smarter pvper.

But I do agree that dying means nothing in the current state, and I can see your pov. I think its on funcom to change this perspective, if there is even a thought about making pvp better. There is NO penalty for dying, other than a stat. ANd since that is the only thing we pvpers have, why not leave it in game?

I would love to see a mini where you get one life.

[kalston]

Dying does matter in pvp (and it should), think about a tie in CTS (ie. what you should expect to happen when the two teams are balanced), it's all about who gets the most kills and the fewest deaths. Also think of TT.

People blindly going for the objectives and getting farmed ruin that kind of mini, while those some of you call "k/d whores" will save the game by being careful.

Players MUST care about dying, but at the same time they must ALSO care about killing and playing the objectives. That's what good pvpers do and that's why good pvpers don't have a horrible k/d.

Good pvpers CAN have a negative k/d (especially true for some classes, totally untrue for soldiers, no halfway decent soldier can have negative k/d in this game really, I'm not speaking of tortage geared toons of course, but starting from pvp 5 gear, tanks just can't die more than they kill) but let's not exaggerate, all classes have the tools to kill in this game so even healers and flag carriers shouldn't be ending minis with 0 kills 20 deaths. It's a fact, the better healers and flag carriers are better than the others because they don't just do their job, they also get kills.

KDR is not bad as people make it out to be, it's not great, it's not objective, but it's better than nothing and people exploiting it are well known and made fun of.

[Korando-AoC]

Be realistic though, how many do that? And who cares about those, they are well known and made fun of.

Many actually do that on Crom, and it's so bad that most times this include players which people continue to call "top players" (even if many times they mostly self proclaim themselfs).

In two minigames I just joined yesterday, some people of my group left the game even if we were winning 1-0 and 2-0, because scared of deaths.
Of course rest of players left tried to defend and win the game, by sacrificing and getting killed many times.
Both times we won the games, in 4 and 5 only players left.

This says a lot about the meanings of k/d ratio stats.
Those people who left probably have a better k/d than people who continued to fight in 4vs6 and 5vs6, but to my eyes those who left are very bad players, which I strongly doubt are seriously able to play for the team at anytime.

And people who left were not always unexperienced players, but also the so called self-proclamed pros.


Bring back k/d stats visible means that we will have even more of this kind of behaviour, with people who actually wanna play having games broken, by rest of group leaving, staying in hide full time or just ignoring any help that is not finalized to getting a good k/d.

I don't know what you think, by I don't like the "roulette" type of gameplay, when I wait for the right mini to play and sit on hide or just go afk if I got the worse team.

If I want a game like this I go play online poker, which is actually seriously more fun and complex that this kind of gameplay, and requires less of my time.