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Thread: PvE Brute Conq - 3 points of discussion

  1. #1

    Default PvE Brute Conq - 3 points of discussion

    I have three things I’d like some feedback on.

    First – Battlefield Commander vs Beseige/Assail. Since the revamp everyone seems to think Battlefield Commander is the way to go. I tried it out for a little bit and it just didn’t seem to be all that amazing. I don’t have any numbers to back myself up right now, but from the testing on dummies and parses and stuff that I did, having Assail and besiege with no cooldown just seemed to serve better than BC and straight up HoFS.

    So if BC is really all that much better – why? What am I missing? I haven’t had the ability to raid T4 yet, but in T3 and all the K6’s I’ve done, I can main tank anything. I can aggro swap with no issues (depending on if I’m against a goad spammer or not of course) and don’t feel like I’m under par. I’ve shared my build and rotation with a few other people and the comments I’ve gotten is that it’s a beast of a build. But that still doesn’t help me out with BC vs Besiege/Assail. If I can be a better conq, I want to be – but I just don’t understand why BC is the rave now.

    Second – before the revamp it was mentioned to me to make sure to get 8 points into the carnage tree to get fully feated Fierce Opening. I never did until recently...just too lazy to try I guess. Well I finally put the points in, and then was told it’s no longer necessary because of the revamp. Brutes dish out enough without needing to touch the carnage side at all. I didn’t have any problems to make me switch those 8 points around, I just was slow to the draw in changing my build…so now I’m wondering if it really does still help or if I should just go back to where I was before. I loved my old build, so it was more of a test for me – that I think may have failed but not totally sure.

    Third – People have also said that weapon swapping to use Breach and Bloodbath makes you a better brute as well. Getting the debuff and the dot is better than staying 2h the whole time. However, I’ve recently tried that as well, and my dps went down. In Frenzy with my dps set on, I parsed higher on Arby without the DW combos than I did with them (I didn’t get Blood Draw either encounter, so my time on Arby was the same). Is it a matter of getting used to these new combos in my rotation or am I missing something else? I don’t have BB VII – I’ve just got VI – but it just didn’t seem to be worth swapping for. Perhaps it’s because I moved those 8 points into carnage? Again I’m not sure what I did ‘wrong’ since I felt like it was a step backwards for me.

    Now please before you post - I'm not a numbers person. Stats and formulas to determine the best DPS or output for x input in y instance against z type of damage - that doesn't make sense to me most of the time. I want a valid arguement but if you spew out a tl;dr post with all these figures and stuff, I'll blow past it. Now that's not to say I want pure opinion with no validation, I'm just saying all that stuff won't compute in my head.
    Conqueror Mairenne ~ Guardian Isabetha ~ Dark Templar Adayna
    Ranger Annalici ~ Barbarian Cailannah ~ Assassin Kaidha
    Necromancer Laylesi, Stirmatka ~ Demonologist Mavash ~ Herald of Xotli Nebithet
    Priest of Mitra Siracus ~ Tempest of Set Millah ~ Bear Shaman Yasuyin

  2. #2


    Most of my shots in the dark were big misses haha
    Last edited by Balacai; 4th April 2013 at 11:36.

  3. #3


    About your first point I find it very surprising.

    Assail + Besiege gives a 35% weapon damage you need to stack (even though it stacks pretty fast), and FI generation so that you're sure to use your techniques/banners at full FI all the time.

    BfC gives a passive 40% weapon damage you don't need to stack, and buffs your techniques/banners to such extend that even at 0 FI they are equal if not better than 10 FI techs/banners in a Assail/besiege setup. Not even mentionning the stuff BfC gives you that FI don't, such as the extra hate on Will of Mettle.

    Therefore I believe the Besiege combo should outperform HoFS by a very very very wide margin for Assail + Besiege to outperform BfC.
    -- Ieronon, QQror --
    -- Deutter, holy potato --

  4. #4


    Isn't HoFS/Besiege just a filler combo? (when GoDS, IFA and BB are on cd)

  5. #5


    HOFS is actually your weakest basic combo and as stated above is a filler, or as something to throw when too many shields get directed to the center. It should not be a primary part of your combo rotation. The main DPS combo is Bloodbath, followed by IFA. GODS should be applied for the proc - the combo itself is relatively poor damage.

    Basically, Besiege/Assail combined allow you to always have a 10 stack of FI and gives a 35% weapon damage boost. BFC is better in every way because it passively gives 40% weapon damage boost (without the crits/kbs of Assail) and even at a 0 stack of FI it is flat out better. More reasonably you can get to a 7 or 8 stack if you are just rotating your discipline only. You can play around with BFC and get more hate, more mitigation, more deflection, more crit, more healing... it is very versatile depending on what you are doing.

    Fierce Opening I have parsed out and frankly it provided next to nothing. Lacerate is a pretty poor investment in feats. I wanted to like this idea, but it doesn't work the way you initially might think. When a white hit can crit for 1500 or 2000, you may imagine that Fierce Opening dramatically improves it. It doesn't. If I had to guess at the function, I would suggest it adds 75% to the combo opener bonus damage - so if that is +60, it now does +105.

    Finally, Bloodbath with good weapon swapping dramatically improves DPS. I wouldn't compare a parse against a raid boss as a lot of things can happen in that. Just check it out on a strawman parse. I've found in the past it is about an extra 100 DPS on top of whatever you can do without it.
    Last edited by Boesch; 4th April 2013 at 07:39.

  6. #6


    Before the Conq revamp there was a nice BQ bubble build using the 8 pts in carnage or even 11, for both PvE and PvP. Ever since the revamp and qq on TL forums, they basically made you have to go down both sides of tree. As Boesch said, 5pts in lacerate is just to much of a waste these days.

    As for BFC, like all feats / builds / gear, all depends on situation. I think BFC is, as everyone says the PERK to have 90% of the time. Popping the heal banner with BFC is a significant improvement to the heals. I forget the numbers but they were nice. Besiege I believe does more DPS then HofS because its all around faster and it may be better at sustaining/obtaining AoE aggro for those situations(not exactly for boss fights) but I can't remember the last time I even tried. Can't really think of any other use.

    As for BB6, get 7. Nothing bad about BB unless your just slow/bad at swapping to dw.
    Last edited by Raydenz; 4th April 2013 at 20:54.

  7. #7


    Ok one more question - Gen/Sustained Rage or Brute/Devistate?
    Conqueror Mairenne ~ Guardian Isabetha ~ Dark Templar Adayna
    Ranger Annalici ~ Barbarian Cailannah ~ Assassin Kaidha
    Necromancer Laylesi, Stirmatka ~ Demonologist Mavash ~ Herald of Xotli Nebithet
    Priest of Mitra Siracus ~ Tempest of Set Millah ~ Bear Shaman Yasuyin

  8. #8


    Quote Originally Posted by Mairenne View Post
    Ok one more question - Gen/Sustained Rage or Brute/Devistate?
    Sustained Rage.

    The reasoning is the same as before - HOFS is one of the 'least' damaging of your combos and on a parse it should show. It's best to aim to minimise its use. 5% on top of it is a very small benefit.

    Checking a quick parse on Saddur I had last night, the order was:

    White Damage
    GODS 4
    Feint Attack 9
    Bloodbath 7
    HOFS 5

    (maybe I was a bit lazy on the bloodbaths that time).

    If I added an extra 5% to the HOFS, it would barely be over 5 DPS. 1 DPS per feat point = skip it!

    Oh, and just in case you find some older builds, it was at one stage popular to feat this because of combo cancelling. Batter Aside was especially cancellable.

  9. #9


    Thanks everyone for your replies.

    I parsed myself several different ways against a straw man in the guild city and the clear winner was using BFC, BB6 (cuz I'm too cheap to buy the book - I'll have to get it from Abyss), and I screwed up and had Elusive Nature slotted instead of Pressing Strikes. So I did all my testing with Elusive Nature to keep it the same (since I didn't realize it til way too far in to start over).

    I only used Will of Onslaught and Burning/Restoring Standards (because there were times where I ran out of stamina, and to keep things as consistent as possible, I did not use pots), alternating between planting the banner and grant technique.

    And that was with Sustained Rage feated, not Devastate.

    I don't understand what I did differently to test this crap out before, but I obviously didn't do it right because BFC is definitely the way to go, with BB.

    @ Boesch, Now regarding your order, my best DPS parse put me at this:

    White Damage
    HoFS 6
    GoDS 4
    BB 6
    FA 9

    My best tanking parse was the same except with BB 6 and FA 9 flip flopped...but I made sure to use GoDS, BB, and FA any time they were off cooldown. So I don't know why HoFS is still parsing as high as it is if everyone says it's the least used combo I have. I only use it when everything else is already on cooldown - so what am I doing wrong? Is it because I'm using HoFS 6 and not 5? If that's the reason, then I want to keep using 6, because I can't hit the other combos any more frequently because of their cooldowns, so I'd rather get more DPS out of HoFS 6 than using HoFS 5.
    Last edited by Mairenne; 5th April 2013 at 06:56.
    Conqueror Mairenne ~ Guardian Isabetha ~ Dark Templar Adayna
    Ranger Annalici ~ Barbarian Cailannah ~ Assassin Kaidha
    Necromancer Laylesi, Stirmatka ~ Demonologist Mavash ~ Herald of Xotli Nebithet
    Priest of Mitra Siracus ~ Tempest of Set Millah ~ Bear Shaman Yasuyin

  10. #10


    Okay, a few things I can see here.

    First is that you should use HOFS 5. It's faster, so for a filler that's better, and if you want to test for yourself use nothing but HOFS 5 and compare it to nothing but HOFS 6. HOFS 5 actually parses out higher DPS.

    Secondly, GODS. That's odd that it is lower. It might be because you spent a long time animating the 3 step HOFS 6 (pushing everything else lower), or it might be that you haven't feated out your Blessed Conquest bubble. It's not the bubble itself that does the damage, but the Improved Dancing Steel feat immediately before it which, at 5 points, makes your own attacks proc GODS.

    Third is the full overview of the rotation. Once you get rid of HOFS 6, you'll both immediately do higher DPS and find your 'filler' isn't basically consuming all your time. You should ideally be using the highest 3 ranks of Feint Attack (9, 8 and 7) whenever they are available. This is especially relevant if you feated them for the +25% damage which, IMO, is an outstanding choice. Again, HOFS 5 is for when there's nothing else to use or a mob stacks their shields heavily. I should just take a moment to say - it's still going to do plenty of damage, it's not total rubbish, but it's just not the optimal attack. It will always appear in a respectable position on a parse.

    Obviously having the higher rank of Bloodbath is going to help a bit. It'll do more damage and it takes longer to animate (so less HOFS in there to fill things out). If you don't have it I guess there's not much else to say on that matter

    Finally I would try and parse in as similar conditions as possible as to when you are tanking. So that probably means going both the tanking discipline and formation. Oh and run pots 24/7

    EDIT: I have a youtube video of me attacking a strawman available here: Nowadays I am starting to tank using the Crit Formation for extra DPS.
    Last edited by Boesch; 5th April 2013 at 07:05.

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