how so!!??
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This is why. Just because people push a parse etc. Doesn't mean they are going to wipe, or cause a wipe.
I see this all the time. People half paying attention, thinking that the dps has to cater to the tanks is the way it goes. The fact is, is that tanks should do their best to cater to the dps, and "if" the dps pulls, they stop for a second or two, let the tank get it back and continue killing the guy.
Guards have stall, Conq's hare crap ton's of hate mod, and DT's have void. Almost 0 reasons for any soldier to loose aggro to dps. Sure their are encounters within the game where aggro is screwy, but with your examples of "yak and the adds" I highly doubt we are thinking about the same encounters.
Anyway, my "sarcasm" about being excited to play with you wasn't understood. I'll rephrase it for you. From what you have said "so far" on the forums. I really hope we never meat in the raid encounters.
you didnt understand the point, i said that if you spam aggro withouth worrying about anything else, if you get low on health and need another tank to get the aggro, it will be harder for him to get it because you spammed everything there was, so in consequence you might die by your own fault and not the other tank...
in the case of the dps members, 90% of the pp i see with parser actually when take aggro, they DONT STOP dpsing, so whos fault is it!? for me is the dps that spammed huge burst of damage and didnt care about anything else...
anyway, i merely talking about tactics between each members, but it seems you dont get it
90% of the tanks I see loose aggro are too proud of themselves to "try" and get it back. They would rather blame the dps instantly as apposed to just get better themselves.
As far as using all your hate mods and such while another tank is trying to save you. You should always keep up on these tools, if you need it off of you, then its pretty easy to just stop hitting, and let the other tank thats doing the exact same thing as you "supposed to be" take over the aggro.
In short, if 2 tanks are doing what they are supposed to, dps "usually" won't pull. And if they do it's a quick fix to get it back again. And the tank who needs to heal up, simply stops hitting for a second. Aggro should only be a couple seconds away from when tank 1 stopped hitting.
DPS is supposed to let the tanks grab agro and bring the adds back to the group before going all out dps on them. If you are in a yakmar raid chances are you are going to have some new raiders who don't realize that and get excited and start nuking right when the worms pop...then the tanks have to run after them and try and get agg ro back. So you likely are going to have more trouble on a yak (t1) raid than on a t2/t3/etc raid where people hopefully have some clue as to tanking vs dps vs healing.
Even prehealing a tank can cause a healer to get ag gro. Its not the tanks fault if a demo gets killed because they use waves of flames on a group of adds off the bat without giving the tanks a couple of seconds to get established on agro.
And if you are dpsing and get agro then you certainly should stop and pull off pets and give the tank a chance to get it back (or hit another add) vs just whaling on it then wondering why you died.
true, i never stop taking aggro when im tank, even if dps takes it, im not that kind of proud player, but when i see a dps member dpsing like crazy without worrying about his own damage burst, its bad playing on the dps member...
dps members simple start fights by debuffing boss or buffing themselves up, allowing the tanks to get much more aggro, and then they can full dps - me, for example, with barb or hox, if i dont do that (slow dps at start), ill take aggro in no time, no matter how good the tank is, and its my fault and not the tank
Just another point to consider for this particular situation and for any other similar situations and that is CC's
All things are relative and as you get better at tanking and progress so does the dps usually, so there will always be instances where you lose aggro and have to 'save' the dps even in t4.
Best tip I could give is feat 'stunning charge' in jug tree and bind it to a mouse button - its the best 'twitch' ability for a guard to save a dps'er.
Stunning charge is an instant cc and gives you a few seconds to start using those combo's shoe told you about.
Most aggravating scenario is when mobs start pin balling around and get kited... makes it harder to get aggro back as you start missing combo steps and finishers.
Tying down mobs with cc's and turning them into straw-men will help your aggro generation a lot.
Apart from re-actively using cc's - also try to preemptively use them.
By this I mean use them to group mobs up and hold them in place while you generate agro - so that if they are pulled off you to begin with, they wont actually move any where so you get time to land a few more combos and have a chance at taking aggro back before they come out of cc lock.
The S&B guard has three stuns, try and use them when mobs are together to help you start landing combos on 2 or 3 mobs at the same time.
In case you don't know you have to turn backward to the mobs to stun them with 'overwhelming shout' front 180 cone gives you a fear, rear 180 cone gives you a stun. This is an aoe stun and you don't have to land any combo it's a spell. This is slow to get off though so get use to running in from of where mobs are traveling to and timing it to fire as they come into range.
Shield strike can stun multiple mobs if you aim it right, and it can be preloaded so you can do the white hit as you are running after a mob you are trying to get off a dps'er.
Apart from that you have two knock backs, keep your polearm in your alt weapon slot so you can swap to it for the extra knock back.
Last tip is if you have to goad, always follow it with an irritate or cry of havok, don't use it cold... or at the very least with shield slam. You will find it a lot more effective if when you start to think you might need to use it to save some one that you let your taunts come off cool down first. Also forced engage at the same time as popping stall the advance is a tricky way to get some burst hate when all else is on cool down, its a way of proc'ing stall to get the hate from it when you aren't otherwise being hit.
As Boesch alluded to a good tank doesn't blame dps for pulling agro, instead uses the tools at hand to make sure they don't die whilst regaining aggro.
But don't talke guardian advise from Boesch his guard is bad and will always be bad!
And don't listen to Schou Senior, he spams goad and can't land irritate... Schoujr is a much better tank imo.
/sorry for the tldr late night keyboard diarrhea
A lot of great advice in here! I am mainly playing my Bear atm, but I think this will help a lot of future people with my noob-disease =)
So is it true that the Guard class is worthless in comparison to a DT or Conq? I was told by "Combat" a guard who say's he's really good, that they basically are worthless.
thoughts?
guard in juggernaut+general tree is best survivalist agro monkey tank.
very enjoyable and complex gameplay.
thing is a lot of players are horribad and cant be bothered to l2p it properly so they cry rivers about it.
guard in tempest+general tree is an unkillable terminator in pvp with pvp4 gear+.ganeplay is very easy range of polearm combos is immense so very easy.
tribid builds a arent that viable and works better by choosing 1 tree+general, only 2 working aa major perks, stall the advance. counterweight, both can be used in pve&pvp
conq as been transformed in easymode win in pve dps and pvp its great for players not seeking any chalenge while playing a melee class in pvp,
you can play full dps and outshine barbarians and even sins, as a dps off healer planting banner granting 340 heal ticks and spec a big heal defiance, or full dps carnage+general, or spec 2 bubbles and have insain retaliatory damage deflection, gameplay is quite enjoyable and simple on both main trees, and its possible to make very diverse builds tribids or focusing 1 tree+general.
dt is fun to play but very much broken and not many feat variations are allowed for dt, you either play with talisman and do more dps for both tanking and dps or you play with shield for better survivability but less dps, whole class revolves around 1 single perk granting class sw without any of negative debuffs magic dealers get by sw.
overall very fun to play but not offering much variation of gameplay, agro very dependand on dps doesnt have hate possibilities of conqs or guard, relies on higher dps to generate agro, uniquely dealing magid damage procs and magic damage finishers on combos, some semi ranged magic spells(hexs+dark hand), and extreme self healing to counter non existent bubbles.
all 3 are distinct all are working.