The logic behind T4 gear and the need to adjust its stats.

This is an ex parrot. Most who called themselves "pvpers" were a bunch of whiny crybabies who'd take the easiest way to "win" no matter how stupid/boring it was, which is how Bori degenerated into such a giant fail (original idea was pretty cool, FC just didn't imagine how deep lamerness ran in the alledged pvpers). They were a waste of bandwidth and it's a good thing they left far as I care. Besides real pvpers would be playing true pvp games anyway (fighting games, fps, rts, dotaclones...), the entire point of the traditional MMO is to be a time sink that rewards people with more free time.

Could it be some other way? Yes. Theoretically FC could revamp whole game again and create a new set of stats that only work against other players, implement a full seperation between items with 0 in all pvp stats and others with 0 in all pve stats, not to mention tweak every class and their feats/abilities/aa. There are some games that actually have this total seperation. But that's never gonna happen to AoC, it's too late now.

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Originally Posted by Roargathor

This is THE best option in theory. PvErs get to keep their progression, while pvper's get to keep skill based combat. It's really a win win. I'd be willing to bet my life that if FC did this, they wouldn't need to merge the servers, because the PvP servers would be filling up again. I think the pver's are worried their servers would empty, as all the PvPers who moved there to get minis and gear would go back to where they came from to enjoy world PvP and guild skirmishes again. From then on, all FC would have to do to keep the PvPer's happy would be to add little incentives and objectives. Hell, even just a chance to drop exclusive vanity set armor from players in PvP would do WONDERS to encourage PvP.

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your wrong.

first thing they removed, wich made pvp more skill based was how side step and evasion/double back used to work wich granted much more evade then now and made world pvp a lot more intense and skill based.
bring it back or import dodge from tsw and you resurrect a bit more of skill based pvp(wich still is btw)

second thing is game was always gear dependant, but at start of game all the gear around was shlt so everyone was using crap gear and players with pvp gear stood out a little more given at the time pvp gear was much better then epic kesh gear :P
the gap at that time was so noticeable that people farmed themselves on alts in hidden out sight to max out pvp xp gain to compete for battlekeep ownage(naked rp was how this was called on my old server aquilonia)

third thing wich obliterated pvp was the aa's+bori+new pvp gear
they were realease very closely together, and what happened was all the main players dinged pvp7 automaticaly some even dinged pvp8 :P,
they farmed bori to pvp10 and obtained pvp10 bori gear quite faster then rest that was pvp4-5-6 and didnt dig bori and gained massive superiority vs t1 pvp geared people and t2-t3 pve geared players.
aligned with that all the pro pvp'ers farmed bugged bosses like yun as soon as it was possible with literaly didnt sleep to farm harder for aa's, so in space of 2 months all the "pro pvper's" had loads of all the important aa's for their class while the rest barely had any aa's.
another thing was that new pvp gear forced you to do minigames wich wasnt even priority or popular pvp content apart from hallowed vaults.

fourth thing human nature, despite first 2 months or so bori actualy worked as intended after short time people just started to aggregate to farm nodes and avoid any pvp huge zerg guild were formed to avoid pvp at all costs and to be able to farm nodes in peace.
around same time by popular and mostly from american demands, the most vicious blow yet to pvp was delivered.
players were no longer able to sign up as a team for minigames
the real problem wich was underlying it was fixed much later wich was battlekeep buffs combined with bori gear making players simply to strong to be oposed.

so since start of game the pvp system that i consider working and inducing and rewarding pvp are:
1 new minigame call jheball sag
1 pyre system in cimmerian end

its not my fault i have a pvp10 char and a few lower pvp lvl chars wich i didnt do any bori and only minigames+world pvp to obtain :P.
but i guess i dont qualify as pvp player given i dont cry river over t4 gear given i own t4 on my main and on my fully t4 main alt bear shaman.
there is nothing op about t4 gear it actualy for some classes is best gear available for every aspect of game.

what they should adjust about pvp gear before forcing everyone to use it is making it best gear to pvp wich currently inst and that is why we have all these people bitching about it.

so please funcom people adjust pvp gear stats so all pvp gear for all classes is best gear to pvp

but guess what?
pvp wont be popular even if you do that.
pvp needs content it needs open world & guild vs guild pvp objectives.
and that is why people stop pvping, because bettewen class imbalances and lack of pvp content all there is to do is pve and if you dont like pve then there is no point paying or playing this game.



signed

a pve'r wanting to pvp with friends again in minigames and willing to pay expantion for pvp open world objectives & guild vs guild pvp objectives

just let us play with at least 1-2 friends in minigames its getting rediculous that you cant play with your friends.

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Originally Posted by zeuss

just let us play with at least 1-2 friends in minigames its getting rediculous that you cant play with my friends.

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U can use tournament mode to play with friends.

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Originally Posted by Doomkiller

U can use tournament mode to play with friends.

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agreed, I think a lot of people don't realize that you actually get campaign badges for winning Tournament Mode. I found this out from doing Premades. The problem is, Tournament Mode isn't the popular format for the people looking to just pug mini. So even though everyone cries about not being able to group up together, it's really by choice rather then because the option isn't available.

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Originally Posted by noite80

your wrong.

second thing is game was always gear dependant,

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It's "You're". And, You're wrong. You obviously were not here at launch, when people were pvping shirtless or in greens and without noticeable consequence. PvP servers were doing great back then. That was untill the gem debacle. PvEers who wanted their "hard work" to be worth it in the form of power progression whined and cryied that they shouldn't be getting owned in PvP by players 10 levels below them. Skill mattered then, much more than it does now. Adding gear power progression, instead of actual PvP content, destroyed PvP.

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Originally Posted by cins

Besides real pvpers would be playing true pvp games anyway (fighting games, fps, rts, dotaclones...), the entire point of the traditional MMO is to be a time sink that rewards people with more free time.

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Another guy who wasn't here for launch.... The game was never sold as a "traditional MMO". Gear power was never supposed to be a huge factor in PvP. It was repeated by the devs in the pre launch forums over and over. But you are right.. PvPers are player other games right now. Look at the server populations for reference. The POINT of this thread is to discuss why that is. And what the OP is saying is part of that. Gear power creep has deeply impacted PvP in a negative way. The question isn't what can be done about it, (so many suggestions on this forum would be better than what we have now), the real question is if FC WILL DO something.

Many people say it's too late, but I say doing something now is the only thing that will keep AOC cash positive. The rate at which "traditional mmo" content is being added to the game is not satisfactory to neither PvP or PvEers. Their best bet is to use the time and talent wisely and throw the PvPer's a juicy bone before it really is to late.

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Originally Posted by Deathsader

agreed, I think a lot of people don't realize that you actually get campaign badges for winning Tournament Mode. I found this out from doing Premades. The problem is, Tournament Mode isn't the popular format for the people looking to just pug mini. So even though everyone cries about not being able to group up together, it's really by choice rather then because the option isn't available.

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This is dumb.

Tournament mode is not the solution and its a failure.
In order to play with your friends, you need atleast 5 friends online and another group that is willing to sign up. That there alone limits tournament mode to almost non-active.

tell me how the world of multiplayer games would be like if for example Counter Strike you have to find 5 players friends and another group of 6 players just so you can start a match to play with your friends on the same team? It'd be Chaos no one would bother playing.

This is especially stupid in a game that is based on Group Play.

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Originally Posted by Binderato

This is dumb.

Tournament mode is not the solution and its a failure.
In order to play with your friends, you need atleast 5 friends online and another group that is willing to sign up. That there alone limits tournament mode to almost non-active.

tell me how the world of multiplayer games would be like if for example Counter Strike you have to find 5 players friends and another group of 6 players just so you can start a match to play with your friends on the same team? It'd be Chaos no one would bother playing.

This is especially stupid in a game that is based on Group Play.

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So your saying in a tournament, which should be a preselected 6, it's silly if you can't pop it without another group of preselected 6 to play against? Who would you fight against in tournament mode if not another premade? That doesn't make any sense. The rewards should be greater I think though.

And not having it that way just leads to a pug stomp group, which is not a tournament, that's a premade vs a pug. The fact it's difficult to find 12 people to agree to pvp at once on preselected teams says something about the state of pvp.

I enjoy premades, but tampering with tournament mode just so people can pug stomp is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Roargathor

It's "You're". And, You're wrong. You obviously were not here at launch, when people were pvping shirtless or in greens and without noticeable consequence. PvP servers were doing great back then. That was untill the gem debacle. PvEers who wanted their "hard work" to be worth it in the form of power progression whined and cryied that they shouldn't be getting owned in PvP by players 10 levels below them. Skill mattered then, much more than it does now. Adding gear power progression, instead of actual PvP content, destroyed PvP.

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if your such a pure pvp'er why arent you pvp 10 yet?

you can still pvp naked if you want no one stops you.

even prior to new pvp lvl's players were leaving game because after pvp5 game had same issue it has today there are no pvp systems
today people stop playing and/or reroll after reaching pvp10 and get bored playing over and over again same minigames against same people :P.

gear always counted, just gear used to be so crappy as hell.
i already pointed out the only pre-existing mechanic wich realy added more skill to combat but i guess you missed it focusing on my grammar :P.
also for years the combo skipping exploit was untouched allowing some melee classes to have upper hand especialy barbs & bs.
but yeah the skill to combo skip :D.

i pretty much pointed out all the reasons pvp is fail in this game and let me state again t4 gear inst one of them, its simple lack of pvp systems.

biggest disapointment when kithai came out was kithai factions didnt have any direct impact in pvp i was expecting people in same faction as me to have something similar to a guild tag and gain faction points by killing players oposite faction.
basicaly i had asumed with all that factions there would be included pvp quests but noooooo.

why you want a return to launch where game was horribad? just so you can pvp naked? you can still do it.
but yeah a 1.04 server with would be great for some classes but crap for a bunch of others, personaly i would make a new ranger just to play it with combos again.

game was lame at start tosses one shotting everyone hello :P
gem stacking guardians everywhere just charging and one shotting everyone :P.
chain cc's like mad no chance to do anything?

but yeah lol lets go back to that :).

by the way i cant wait for craft revamp to have more gear options for pvp; despite all requests to make pvp gear any good they dont care so hopefully with craft revamp i can make my own pvp set wich is actualy good for pvp :).
hoping someday they revamp inventory so i can keybind gear to swap faster mid battle extra speed gear and physical/magic mitigation gear.

and people did "great" in crap gear because no one realy knew how to play that well so the faster you were a learner the faster you could farm people worse then you, wich is pretty much valid today especialy melee vs melee, player who knows game can dodge most combo finishers with good movement, and you can dodge with your speed and movement cc's and long casts from mages getting behind them.
i would clearly say skill is very much part of the game because takes instinct and lots of agility to do that.

if anything game has been perfecting it self to despite not being balanced its getting closer, something wich was ridiculous first year of game wich especialy at lvl80 you had huge imbalances.
and guess what gear helped reaching that state by allowing classes to perform as intended and with optimal results.

i hope unchained minigames become only type of minigames but from a veteran player point of view not being allowed to use the gear i choose or adjust gear mid fight its crap, and i hope they allow player to use whatever gear he chooses and even swap mid fight gear.

on the other hand its very fair that players joining this new minigame get at least t2 pvp armor by default with access to all aa's even better.

cheers and try and find more grammar errors; im sure i did more then a few ;)
im so gonna laugh when you face the wrath of the russian hackers lagging you dead :D
i guess will be re enactment of the cold war with russians having superior technology with radars, autocomber and basicaly teleporting all over because their latency is so crappy.
prepare your Cyrillic dictionary :D, and btw they have t4 gear.